I questioned the "Bitcoin dev team" (Andresen & Co.) on complying with AML laws. - page 3.

Ichthyo

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 03:12:35 PM

Hidden fees, tracking capabilities, confiscation capabilities, inflation capabilities, backdoors, etc.

I like people trolling, but can you please switch on your brain before trolling.
It becomes so boring otherwise....

Anything you are proposing here is bound to draw from an existing balance on some addres. For that to happen, you need the cooperation of the person controlling that address (i.e. the private key) and you need the cooperation of the whole network to confirm that manipulated transaction. How can you imagine such a thing goes unnoticed?

ChrisKoss

full member

Activity: 169

Merit: 100

Once again, Atlas asks a question and ignores any answers given.

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 01:33:52 PM

[13:25] agent8423: uh. You're confused. There isn't anything like that we could do; nor are there any laws someone should rationally expect to be applicable there. Go ask coal mining equiment makers about their conformance with 'antimoney laundering laws'.

Claiming "mum's the word" is a blatant misrepresentation of what was said. Gmaxwell gave a perfectly valid answer. He ignored the answer because it doesn't fit into his conspiracy theories about the dev team. He's trying to turn a non-issue into a controversy: it's distracting and a waste of everyone's time.

I think Atlas should be banned again.

Luke-Jr

legendary

Activity: 2576

Merit: 1186

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 03:12:35 PM

It would tear the currency to oblivion and small sects.

You seem to be trying to do that already, so what are you worried about?

FWIW, I don't have a dog.

Atlas

jr. member

Activity: 56

Merit: 1

Quote from: kjj on October 12, 2012, 02:58:24 PM

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 02:41:02 PM

Quote from: kjj on October 12, 2012, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 02:31:13 PM

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret? Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen. But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in a similar fashion.

Ok, so in your fantasy, the gestapo has rounded up all of the devs and pool operators, and tells them that they need to secretly change the protocol or their dogs will be killed. What then? What possible change do you imagine they could actually do? Be specific.

You know, if you'd put like 10% of your forum trolling effort into learning how the system really works, you be so paranoid about it.

Hidden fees, tracking capabilities, confiscation capabilities, inflation capabilities, backdoors, etc.

Of course these would eventually be discovered; however, by then it would be too late. It would tear the currency to oblivion and small sects.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 02:41:02 PM

Quote from: kjj on October 12, 2012, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 02:31:13 PM

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret? Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen. But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in a similar fashion.

Ok, so in your fantasy, the gestapo has rounded up all of the devs and pool operators, and tells them that they need to secretly change the protocol or their dogs will be killed. What then? What possible change do you imagine they could actually do? Be specific.

You know, if you'd put like 10% of your forum trolling effort into learning how the system really works, you be so paranoid about it.

Brunic

hero member

Activity: 632

Merit: 500

Is that a joke?

Bitcoin is basic maths. Making laws to change how Bitcoins work is like making laws to change how gravity work.

Atlas

jr. member

Activity: 56

Merit: 1

Quote from: kjj on October 12, 2012, 02:36:13 PM

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 02:31:13 PM

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret? Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen. But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.

The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was passed in a similar fashion.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

And for the record, when everyone thinks you're crazy, it isn't proof of some big conspiracy. We might have all just realized on our own that you are crazy.

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 02:31:13 PM

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

What, like in secret? Like all of the congressmen, all of the senators and the President all get together in the middle of the night, pass a law, sign it in blood, and then send out the gestapo to round up all of the devs and pool operators?

Sure, I guess that could happen. But if it does, Satoshi will ride up on his unicorn to save the day.

Atlas

jr. member

Activity: 56

Merit: 1

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: dissipate on October 12, 2012, 01:51:24 PM

It doesn't matter. Any AML crap that goes into the Satoshi client will get stripped out in other forks.

It's even easier than that! Simply refuse to update your client with rules you disagree with.

That won't matter if the rules aren't disclosed and the vast majority of all Bitcoin users accept the update. Your coins would then be subject to their jurisdiction.

Atlas

jr. member

Activity: 56

Merit: 1

Quote from: kjj on October 12, 2012, 02:24:52 PM

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 01:33:52 PM

Although #bitcoin-dev supposedly is a open and transparent channel of the Bitcoind project, people were threatened for discussing a pertinent topic regarding development. Very suspicious.

Troll much?

First, it wasn't an honest question, since you know the answer very well, or at least you should since it has already been answered it in a good fraction of the 94 threads you've started since you un-banning. Second, it really is off topic in that channel. Third, no one was threatened with anything more than enforcement of the channel policy.

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 01:33:52 PM

[13:23] when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:25] agent8423: it has been asked and answered a million times on the forums. the government can ask us to change math, but we still can't do it
[13:26] kjj_: you can release software that complies. you may have to fork the chain but you will have to.
[13:26] we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] agent8423: math is math. congress can't change math.

For those of you not sure how bitcoin works, you "spend" bitcoins by giving the proof to an equation. The equation will keep working no matter what congress says or does.

Worst case, everyone starts using TOR.

Are you absolutely sure the dev team couldn't change the Bitcoin network drastically through an "urgent" protocol update that happens to be immediately accepted by most miners?

kjj

legendary

Activity: 1302

Merit: 1026

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 01:33:52 PM

Although #bitcoin-dev supposedly is a open and transparent channel of the Bitcoind project, people were threatened for discussing a pertinent topic regarding development. Very suspicious.

Troll much?

First, it wasn't an honest question, since you know the answer very well, or at least you should since it has already been answered it in a good fraction of the 94 threads you've started since you un-banning. Second, it really is off topic in that channel. Third, no one was threatened with anything more than enforcement of the channel policy.

Quote from: Atlas on October 12, 2012, 01:33:52 PM

[13:23] when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:25] agent8423: it has been asked and answered a million times on the forums. the government can ask us to change math, but we still can't do it
[13:26] kjj_: you can release software that complies. you may have to fork the chain but you will have to.
[13:26] we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] agent8423: math is math. congress can't change math.

For those of you not sure how bitcoin works, you "spend" bitcoins by giving the proof to an equation. The equation will keep working no matter what congress says or does.

Worst case, everyone starts using TOR.

dissipate

sr. member

Activity: 288

Merit: 251

It doesn't matter. Any AML crap that goes into the Satoshi client will get stripped out in other forks.

Atlas

jr. member

Activity: 56

Merit: 1

It seems mum is the word. How they will react when they get a court order or executive order of any kind is anybody's guess. It's been made clear in court precedent that digital currencies with monetary value are subject to AML and other laws when developed or distributed on US territory. The Bitcoind software development, as it stands, may be compelled to comply through software patches or ceasing activities.

Although #bitcoin-dev supposedly is a open and transparent channel of the Bitcoind project, people were threatened for discussing a pertinent topic regarding development. Very suspicious.

[13:23] when the US government needs Bitcoin to comply with antimoney laundering laws will you guys comply in your development?
[13:24] <@jgarzik> their choice, and it helps full nodes
[13:24] jgarzik: uhhh...no its not
[13:24] ugh.
[13:24] agent8423: can't you leave that shit on the forums where it belongs?
[13:24] <@jgarzik> agent8423: offtopic for #bitcoin-dev
[13:24] but youre developers for Bitcoin? who am i supposed to ask?
[13:25] agent8423: uh. You're confused. There isn't anything like that we could do; nor are there any laws someone should rationally expect to be applicable there. Go ask coal mining equiment makers about their conformance with 'antimoney laundering laws'.

[13:25] == ThomasV_ [[email protected]] has joined #bitcoin-dev
[13:25] jgarzik: its fine if an individual has a need for it and does it, and if its mentioned as an option, but it will no doubt be mentioned as heres how ALL users should get started, which is horrible ux and makes it all seem as poor as it is
[13:25] I would appreciate if anyone can provide code reviews of new coinbase-creation code, especially the base58 parsing: https://bitcointalk.org/?topic=78192.msg1267851#msg1267851
[13:25] agent8423: it has been asked and answered a million times on the forums. the government can ask us to change math, but we still can't do it
[13:25] (the "code" link has the full diff)
[13:25] BlueMatt is right
[13:25] == denisx [[email protected]] has joined #bitcoin-dev
[13:26] kjj_: you can release software that complies. you may have to fork the chain but you will have to.
[13:26] agent8423: Bitcoin is just cash. AML laws are for financial instutition
[13:26] we live in a nation of laws
[13:26] wary of hacky this becoming de facto standard procedure
[13:26] <@jgarzik> Luke-Jr: bitcoins are digital messages, not cash

[13:26] agent8423: math is math. congress can't change math.
[13:27] jgarzik: I'm simplifying :p
[13:27] schumer doesn't think so
[13:27] == mode/#bitcoin-dev [+o BlueMatt] by ChanServ
[13:27] agent8423: in any case, your question isn't concrete enough to form a meaningful answer.
[13:27] <@BlueMatt> next person to mention aml gets kicked

Topic: I questioned the "Bitcoin dev team" (Andresen & Co.) on complying with AML laws. - page 3. (Read 6808 times)