Topic: I think it's possible to keep going without banning mixers (Read 324 times)

It seems to me a good and reasonable solution. Yes, the suspicious mixers whose reputation is being talked about in the media or are accused by the government can be banned and the rest of the mixers without any problems can be kept.

But it is better to adopt the principle of safety with the decision taken by Theymos, because banning mixers is a protection for the forum, and it is also a protection for the members participating in these campaigns, who are paid by the mixers, which will put them under government surveillance.

Also what guarantee is there that the mixer that looks good now is a clean mixer? People kept thinking that Chipmixer looked clean for about 6 years and then the facts were suddenly revealed.

I can not agree more with you and I also had this thought that if the administrators had acted before or given some time in the research then they might found something to ban the promotion of this platform which laundered money. Actually, I also read some articles about Sinbad a long time ago, maybe it's been 6 months now. Well, when I read in an article that Sinbad is being used for Money Laundering J did not apply for it but after some time I thought.

It is not the project which is only made for this bad purpose because I did not know and still do not know if the team was behind it or just some MFs used it for a bad purpose. Well, whoever was behind it the admin and moderators should have taken some action against them.

Overall we can't blame only admins because they are not the one who was promoting these platforms we should also question those managers who managed them but what in the world they would have known. To be honest, I don't want to say anything about it because I do have a little feeling that things will become normal.

In a particular way, I do understand the Op when he said that a particular mixer who has entered the government bad book or who the media has written bad against, should immediately be banned in the forum and maybe its ANN thread archived or trashed. This will be a solution only when the forum is in good relationship with the government. In the other way, the government does not have time to ask if the forum was able to ban a particular mixer when they learnt that they are bad players.
Remember that this forum is already in the government PDF. We understood this when chipmixer was seized. The best thing for the forum is to exenorate itself completely.

Also remember that theymos is a resident in US, he therefore should know better than us what the US government is able to do in a situation like this. Let's work with theymos decision even if it's not the best for us now. There is future and there is room for reversal of decisions if necessary.

theymos has its own life to care about.

His decision and this big call actually are not for only his own life but also for future of Bitcoin Talk forum too. He knew what kind of big risks might come, knock his door and the forum might have issues which I believe none of us want to see.

theymos got a subpoena from US. government because of Silk Road and he had experience with legal issue and I believe he was not fearful if he did not see something big is coming. This proactively preventive solution is good for him, forum and its members including us too.

My concern about Censorship is more about the ban on Mixers becoming a precedent.  I get the reasons theymos would fear repercussions.  His life, freedom and Bitcoin Talk s existence.

But this is possibly mined ground to step on.  You ban Mixers and the next thing they crack down on, either you also ban the thing or they could always suspect you.  They can always knock on the door and ask.  Theymos, why ban a thing but not the other?

Look at things from Theymos' perspective. See how the government is going hard on CZ, Binance, and Ronaldo. This is how they fight a project. When it's a project they can't shut down or control directly, they go against the players in that project.
Mixers are not illegal, but some mixers are making things difficult for the rest and this is bringing a lot of heat to the forum.

Speaking of casinos, the government is not fighting against casinos. They already have a way of controlling and watching them, so they're not a threat. If one or two casino defaults it doesn't mean every casino would be a problem to the forum.
1xbit was on the forum with so many issues but the government did nothing at all. You even see 1xbet on the biggest sports sponsorship.


People are entitled to their opinions, aren't they? OP is only voicing his opinion and there's nothing wrong with that. Even if it won't make Theymos change his mind he still has a right to say it.

I do not know why we keep coming up with excuses or suggestions to keep the mixer's discussions and marketing running on this forum.

Isn't the decision of the theymos and he is probably the better judge to know what is good for him and the forum, rather than any other member of the forum.

It's time that we accept his decision. Also, i don't think that no matter which logic we come up with, he is ever going to change his decision, not in the current times when authorities are after the mixers.

Theymos can disable showing the signature banners and it could end right away but he needs activity on this forum so he'll likely keep it on, or if Bitcointalk loses its value on the internet or the search engine it's unlikely with over 500k backlinks, and counting, the future is very uncertain but these two are two things that will make signature campaign likely to stay, other factors that will make the signature campaign go away are still unknown,

If we're active here daily we will feel that when top casinos cease to support the signature campaign and no new projects are launching a new campaign, but right now they are still at it, let's enjoy until they last or we cannot keep up being active here.

Many times on the forum some provision or law that exists in the US was mentioned that exempts the advertiser from responsibility for what they actually advertise, and legally I think that the members of the forum are protected by that, but I am not sure if the same applies to the forum. But if it's true for Google and other big companies, then it should be true for the forum, right?

Regardless of how someone interprets it from a legal perspective, it seems that it is still a slippery slope that the admin wants to avoid, of course, first of all, keeping in mind that it is not the forum itself, but also him personally as a responsible person. I believe that it is not easy for anyone to think of Ross Ulbricht, who will most likely rot in prison for the rest of his life, and to think that something similar could happen to you.


Imagine a situation where the mixers remain on the forum under the same conditions as before, and then an article appears in one of the influential media where the article mentions every mixer by name as possible services that are currently being used by some hacker/terrorist group. Game over, right?


We have to accept that sooner or later the time will come when signature campaigns will no longer be part of this forum. Whether it will be about the fact that gambling sites will be banned after the mixers, or maybe the forum as a place for advertising will lose its meaning due to the decreasing interest of some of the new generations that are coming.

Some older members of the forum surely remember the time when signature campaigns did not even have a manager and everything was done by bots - and in those ten years we have obviously gone from one extreme to the other. Those who adhere to the rule "always expect the unexpected" have known for a long time that such times will come. We have nothing left but to adapt and move on.

Possible?  Yes.  Prudent?  Seemingly not.

And we're not exactly banning them, we're just not actively promoting them as vociferously.  I'm confident we'll still identify the shady ones and warn users against them.  And people will still find their way to the legitimate ones if they need to.  Mixers aren't going anywhere.  It's just that we're trying to be a little more discreet about it because they're a sensitive subject at the moment.

Despite the fact that I have been promoting a mixer campaign for the past 42 weeks, I actually like it that I get paid for a couple of comments I make on the forum through the mixer service; likewise, there are so many members who are promoting mixers through their signature spaces too, but at this point, it's not in the decision of anyone of us to change the rules made by Thymos already.

In the thread about mixers to be banned, Thymos said that he was not asked by the government authority to ban mixers from the forum, but without him being requested to ban mixers from the forum, we know what his fear is.

The forum has been of help in so many ways to different people, casinos, ICOs, and crypto newbies, and it's still helping to promote other Bitcoin services and crypto-related services too; therefore, it cannot be risked because of the mixer service.

I would have also suggested that mixers continue and let the rule made by Thymos be reversed, but what if, because of these mixer services, anything happens in the future and it lingers with the forum and the government places a heavy fine to be paid by the forum admin, or else the forum will short down? What will the faith of the forum be by then?

Will all the mixers who got promoted here be able to raise the amount of money that will be fined to the forum?

I am not saying anything of the sort will happen, but what if?? That's why it's just necessary to take an early precaution.

Since @Theymos made the decision, I think it may take a long time to change, because @Theymos didn't take this kind of decision very easily, and since everyone needs safety, I think @Theymos came to this kind of decision with a lot of thought.

Now we have to wait until all the environment is normal, after that if Theymos decides again then the matter is different.

I believe Theymos made a well-thought-out decision. With recent news involving mixers, a responsible admin would prioritize the overall protection of the forum, even if it means sacrificing certain aspects. I know some may feel disappointed about the ban on mixer news, but let us not forget to recognize the potential harm it could pose if the US orders a shutdown of our beloved forum.

In this light, it seems like a prudent decision, and we should remain optimistic that the space left by this decision will be filled by new industries or existing ones increasing their exposure on the forum so that opportunity loss will come back again.

It is very possible to continue keep going without banning mixers but you have to understand that it has a whole lot to do with reputation.

The forum has been long enough before the existence of Mixers and we can't deny that the Mixers has its own flavor to the forum but the reputation can not be draggged or questioned because of a service that finds its marketing tracks through the forum walls.

consider it a way of saving the reputation as many more lucrative innovations will still come up tomorrow.

It's not if the forum will survive without or keep going without mixers, it is if some of the forum members will continue to be active because the mixer campaigns are not here anymore, I think they will still become active while waiting for the new campaign to open up, the managers will likely pick posters who are actively posting not just because they want to apply for a new campaign.
Those who are actively posting 5 or more posts while in a mixing campaigns will likely drop their numbers but they will continue to post, they know the forum is very attractive to projects, new campaigns will open up and we never know after five months after talks about mixing, we are still doing good.

It is more like a discussion about allowing a continuation of mixer signature campaigns in Bitcointalk, not about discussions on mixers.

Most of casinos ask KYC on their users but not all but with common KYC on casinos, they are not targets of banning on signature campaigns now and even in future.

If banning casinos because of money laundering on those platforms, all centralized exchanges and even bigger than those, the whole cryptocurrency industry will be at risk of completely ban. Even with fiat currencies, banks, are they successful to have barriers to block all money laundering through fiat currencies and banks?

No, they failed. Hence, asking for a better practice from cryptocurrencies, centralized exchanges, casinos is impossible and unfair.

Theymos doesn't forbid people to discuss about certain mixer, you're free to discuss about the mixer. In theymos understanding, creating an ANN is a form of promotion, this is what he don't allow that.

---

If your point is to make people know which mixer is good and which mixer is scam, you don't have to worry because we have dedicated thread for it. The @OP just need to remove the hyperlink and it's already fine.

Scams Bitcoin Mixers List and Services closed
2023 List Bitcoin Mixers Bitcoin Tumblers Websites

Most of crypto casinos are asking KYC, it's not possible to hide your identity through centralized casino. Banning on casinos are high unlikely to happen because casinos are still legal, it's need either casino is illegal or Bitcoin is illegal, then crypto casinos and even this forum will be closed too.

Anyway why we need to have a parallel thread? Mixers to be banned

The forum is not all about signature campaign and without signature campaign, the forum will continue its operation and live discussions. Without risk from governments, theymos can shut down all signatures if he wants.

I completely agree that the forum should not take risk by allowance for mixers and mixer signature campaigns and in return, the forum can be shut down.

The forum does not get income from signature campaigns but forum members do. However, without mixer signature campaigns, there are other campaigns for forum members too so this big call is not the end of forum member to find jobs and get income from campaigns.

I don't see that risk for casinos that accept cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrency accepted casinos have their licenses and they are similar to centralized exchanges and they can follow laws, regulations. Mixers are different, they don't want to register license or follow laws but I honestly don't know any guide from government to register a mixer service to get a license.

Yes, it is possible, and I see that some mixer campaigns have changed their marketing method, but the final blow will be to ban casinos, as this industry, in addition to mixers, represents about 90% of signature campaigns, and then most visits to the forum will be severely reduced, and we may see a very limited number of signature campaigns.

I for one wanted to keep the mixers in this forum. For one thing, they embody the true decentralization and anonymity that cryptocurrencies are boasted for. To ban them is a massive shame but at the same time, I understand where Theymos and the bitcointalk team is coming from. It’s bad enough that crypto’s seen as a hacker and scammer’s safe haven, with mixers being the primary weapon for this. The thing is that in the advent of mixers getting banned and shamed in social media, bitcointalk couldn’t risk the same ridicule and flak, so they have no choice but to actually ban them and prevent such thing from happening.

Perhaps in the future, such ban is to be lifted, but I doubt it personally.

What theymos did was for the common good of all, and if you read people's posts very well, you would realize that many expected this before it happened. Also, I don't seem to see so much wisdom in the analogy you link between m!xers and casinos, they are just two different business models. One is riskier than the other and one is a threat to the world than the other. If the government clamps down on a particular casino, the case will be different, especially when the casino is duly registered. This is not the first time that businesses have paid fines for money laundry and the bosses involved going to jail without affecting their business's operations.

The recent case of Binance is an example, have governments dealt with their promoters? That's impossible, it's a different business model, not such that is advertising anonymity. They will deal decisively with the management if found wanting and will get to come up with an ideal punishment. This is because they would of course know the people behind the casino to deal with them. Do they know the people behind m!xers? Common!!! There are some high-level illegality that m!xers are involved in, I don't think it's wise for the forum administration to still allow them.

Most of you look at the money, not the integrity and the humanitarian side, but the forum and its management look beyond that. A good name is worth a lot more than gold and silver, let's keep it that way here.

When one mixer is sanctioned by government agencies, bad actors that utilize such services will simply move on to the next available mixer and that's a recurring pattern. The fact that they're yet to be sanctioned by government doesn't mean that they won't be. Theymos mentioned that the forum has been yet been contacted but it's better to be safe that sorry.

In the end, I'm not a fan of censorship but it's a sad reality that there's so much we'd like to change but are unable to do so.

Theymos wants to ban them on this forum because bitcointalk.org was mentioned in justive.gov pdf files and Sinbad.io's bitcointalk signature campaign address was also blacklisted by OFAC and they themselves registered on this forum and wrote a warning post. These are the real reasons!

Then there would be no USA based coinbase and USA based bitcoin mining pool called Foundry USA. Both of these companies are one of the biggest companies in bitcoin industry. I think there is a difference between regular sentence government doesn't like bitcoin and money was laundered through Sinbad.io. Governments don't ban bitcoin, even blackrock got involved into it.

I don't care as much about mixer campaigns as their availability and discussion on this forum. This forum has a good trust system, it's easier to pick right mixer on this forum and solve any issue with the help of forum members. Without this forum, it will be super hard to find a good mixer or solve any issue. Any mixer will be able to scam you and there will be nowhere to report them, they'll not have to worry about their trust either.

Me? Risking forum for a few bucks from sig campaign? You are wrong, thanks god I am from western world. Point of this thread is not really to run signature campaign, it doesn't matter for me if he lets mixers to run signature campaigns or any other kind of promotion. My point is that we shouldn't block mixers from creating ANN thread and from discussion in their threads because it helps people to choose good, trustworthy mixer and since it's not illegal, there is nothing wrong with it. The problem in this case was that theymos didn't ban certain mixers that were laundering money. If new casinos create ANN threads tomorrow and start laundering money and get seized and Interpol metions bitcointalk again in their PDF, casinos will be blocked on this forum, right? So, you know, the problem will easily be solved if we block companies and services on this forum that do something illegal. It's easier to know they do something illegal once they get media's attention. Then, simply ban them on this forum and there won't be any mention of bitcointalk in justice.gov PDF documents.

He will ban the casino signature campaigns too if it comes to that. I don't think that would be a hard decision for him to make. As far as I know, he hasn't ruled out completely abolishing signature campaigns in the future, so keep that at the back of your mind. 

At the end of the day, It's just a forum, a private forum. The owner or administrator can do whatever he wants with it.

It's all about the North Korean hackers Lazarus Group.

If you know the history of this group, you will understand why The USA are hunting them. And to be honest if I'm the POTUS I would do the same since the main job is to protect the country (and so the citizens)

They don't really care about mixers, but since LG uses such services, everything is good to try to stop the bad guys.
Replace "Mixer" with "Bank", they will hunt the bank too. Surely not the same way, they won't seize the bank, instead, they will issue a fine to the bank (as they usually do)

Others mixers have never been mentioned by any media, yes, but in a justice court imagine saying yourself "Media didn't say so I didn't know"

Better safe than sorry right? Why would you want to risk the forum for a few bucks in a signature campaign? Legal or not, why take the risk? Not sure where there is any reason to think twice about it honestly.

Yea some are going to feel like we are being censored or whatnot, but I would rather this place exist vs risking that at some point it might not if we let advertising of mixers happen. Just my 2 cents.

You can still mention them and discuss them alright, you will not be allowed to promote for them, they are not completely banned, that's why I stopped attacking theymos. 😉 either way I personally am OK with both scenarios, so count my 1 vote for both sides.

I don't know if Theymos is privy to any info the rest of us aren't, but I think he's being proactive and sees the writing on the wall as far as mixers go.  Obviously the US alphabet agencies have them under the microscope, and Theymos wants to protect the forum, so....

I do find it unfortunate things went this way, but what happens when you try to fight the government?  You lose 99.999% of the time, and why even try to do something that would instigate a battle with the SEC and who knows what other agencies?  We'll survive without mixer campaigns or even threads about mixers; the forum did just fine before they came along, right?

You know what? I'm also against banning any Bitcoin services, but the admin has made up his mind already, however he is a reasonable person and would listen to reason. So you'd need the majority to come up and agree with reasonable debate as to why it's not necessary to ban them. But I do agree that what you said is a good solution. But remember this: governments and medias also believe Bitcoin is used for the wrong reason, should we ban Bitcoin too?

But as long as your solution could be effective to protect this forum, I'd say it's a good one.

US has sacrificed and shutdown some mixing services:


Not that US shut down all mixing services to stop operation in the country.

Not that there is a law that directly ban mixers. If there is a law that mixers are banned, we all will not have anything to say. But without any clear regulations and law against mixers, theymos want to ban them on this forum.

Mixer campaigns makes this forum lively and give joy to some people but without clear regulatory laws for them, we are taking them away from this forum.

Without any law that will shut down mixers in US, I do not see any reason theymos should ban them on this forum.

This has been a hot topic recently but I think it's not necessary to ban mixers because their existence is not actually the problem today. Mixers are legal, they aren't illegal, so, it's no problem for this forum to allow mixers to create ANN thread and have discussion or even promote themselves via forum ads or signature campaign. Google allows you to search bitcoin mixers, right? There are even articles on Yahoo where bitcoin mixers are listed too.

To my mind, the problem is that forum doesn't ban mixers until they are officially seized. For example, it was known that Sanctioned mixer Blender.io relaunched as Sinbad.io. There are many proofs in this article against Sinbad.io, i.e. how many millions of dollars were laundered through Blender at first and then through Sinbad. The moment this article was published, forum administrators should have banned Sinbad and closed its ANN, promotion and other related threads. Media and government attention together are enough proof to consider service as illegal to promote on this forum to get rid of further headache.

Before Sinbad, Chipmixer was seized and forum could get away without getting named in justice.gov files if administrators banned it in 2019 because there were evidences that Chipmixer was used for money laundering: Binance Hackers Bombard Chipmixer to Launder at Least 4,836 BTC.

Yes, believe it or not, the problem starts when you ignore what is publishes about certain mixers. There were mixers earlier, like, [banned mixer] (since 2018) and [banned mixer] (since 2016). I did a research and these mixers have never been mentioned by any media, these mixers haven't been seized and this forum didn't get any problem from these mixers. Are they honeypot? I don't know but at the moment it looks like it's perfectly safe to discuss about them and to it's not harmful from them to promote themselves here. They haven't officially caught any attention from governments.

The reason why this attitude is better for this forum is that what would theymos do if tomorrow there comes a casino with ANN thread, runs signature campaign and helps people to launder money? Imagine you read articles that Lazarus laundered money through CasinoX, then another article comes up with title: Russian hackers launder money through CasinoX. If theymos won't ban this CasinoX immediately and wait for its seize, then this forum will be included in another PDF uploaded by justice.gov. Will theymos block discussion about crypto casinos? Will he ban casino signature campaigns? Doesn't make sense, right?

I know and understand that it's some kind of censorship but it's better than absolutely banning particular categories. I think that it's not necessary for theymos to ban discussion and promotion of mixers. If forum administration and moderation will react when there is an article about particular mixer or casino or another scam crypto project and ban ANN/promotional threads of these particular projects, they won't be included in justice.gov's pdfs and won't be mentioned anywhere. I think this is a safe and better option.