Topic: If I loaned you 1 bitcoin today, how could i expect you to repay if value rises? (Read 3007 times)

Regarding, "what's wrong with capitalism?"

Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY

Exhibit B: http://vimeo.com/4041228

Nineteen Eighty-Four is so 1949

why don't we update that shall we 

 

Don't you think that the politics are greedy?

They want to control everyone and they want power that they sell to the highest bidder, if we don't want them to sell their power (corruption) we need not to give them the power in the first place

You want them to protect you from the big corporations and to build schools but they will buy guns and hire IRS agents to get more money out of your family

When politics are young they know they can get a nice life by doing politics, you can live like a king and have a lot of power and respect if you succeed as a politician

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Apple cannot force you to buy his product but the government force you to buy its product; the state tells you a monopoly is bad but they run a lot of monopolies; when you have a monopoly protected by law and people are forced to buy your product you don't innovate and you are not entice to change if you are not pleasing your customers

My last argument is that other systems have been tried and they don't work, central planning doesn't work because it is not efficient : less innovation and less adaptation to what is changing

Can you explain why greed is inherently wrong? Or is this just an axiom of yours?

greed

I just want to take a sidebar here to talk about bank loans as opposed to loans from other entities. Your points are valid for loans form entities other than banks. However, I think you are misrepresenting the nature of a loan from a bank.

When banks make a loan, the money that they loan is not the bank's money. They don't even loan money that they have from depositors*. Further, that money does not even exist until the loan is made. The very act of loaning the money zaps that money into existence.

As such, the bank is the beneficiary of quite the sweetheart deal. They get to collect interest (typically several times the principal of the loan) on ... nothing. At least nothing of theirs.

Where does the wealth that this new money represents come from? It is shaved off every dollar in existence at the instant the loan is made - in the form of a reduction of that money's purchasing power. While society seems to be OK with this, in my estimation it is a criminal theft of purchasing power. I think society just does not understand how loans work, otherwise they'd be at torches and pitchforks.

Not making the loan does not carry any opportunity cost to the bank, as there is no money sitting around at the bank that they can use for any other purpose. The money does not exist until the loan is made. Edit: strikethrough. While this paragraph is true, it is based upon a misreading of your point about opportunity cost.

The financial industry is a parasite that is incrementally absorbing all the wealth of the entire world through this process.

With this knowledge, run the mental experiment behind foreclosure. Disgusting.

* Yes, there is a very small percentage of the loan that is made with money in the bank's possession. But to a first order approximation, it is overwhelmingly (I think currently in the US 90%) newly-created money.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Defending fraud?  What kind of non-sequitur is that?  We are talking about hypothetical possibilities.
Geez...

Anyway thanks for posting the court case, although I still think there could be other situations
that might be different.  At the end of the day the judge can do pretty much whatever he wants.

Oh snap that totally changes everything! So bitcoins are just USD. Got it... Last one out turn off the lights...

Holy crap what a messy thread.

Original poster:

You simply document the amount 1 BTC buys at the time you loaned it:  $600

That's what he owes you.  Even if its 10 years from now.

Nice post.

Utter bullshit! There is even a precedent:

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/11/07/judge-orders-coinlab-to-pay-up-in-bitcoin/


Stop defending fraud already! If you took a loan in bitcoins that is because you operate in bitcoins in the Bitcoin economy or because you hedged your exposure to exchange rate accordingly like posted in the examples above. If you don't pay it in the amount of bitcoins agreed that is because you were deceiving with your financial dealings an that is the very definition of fraud (seriously, look it up).

A loan agreement could be thrown out by a court as unconscionable if it turned out there was exponential deflation

If the price rise by x10, I could repay you 0,7btc for 1 btc at most. But when the price rise ×10 and then fall 60% i could repay you 3 btc for 1btc at least if my orders do not intetact with the market (orders for 10-50 btc)

History would suggest that over the long run, that bitcoin will be stolen or lost in some fashion.

Lending Bitcoin is a suckers game, and borrowing it is worse.

I'm more of an agnostic myself... the only true proof of the sublime / god I see is in synchronicity.

Anyways... actually most of the major religions consider usury wrong.

Modern interpretations do vary, however, as you can see in the state of the world today.

What I uderstand is that you want to get sure that you will be paid back equally with interest of course right is my suggestion will be if its a small time loand then u don't have to worry about it in long term loans decide the lending and payback amount in usd 

If you loaned me 1 BTC today, I'd add it to the Just-Dice bankroll and over time it would almost certainly grow in BTC terms.  By keeping it in BTC we're immune from currency fluctuations.

Good thing the United States isn't capitalist. Rofl idiot. Kill yourself.

The volatility of the underlying currency is a risk that the borrower must bear.  This is one reason why stability is preferred.

If the price rose 10-fold over the next 10 years you couldn't then reasonably expect the borrower to repay you.  Practically nothing appreciates at that rate so you would fully expect default.

In the future, this exchange rate should become more stable.  As it does, bitcoin-denominated loans over long periods will become more feasible.

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Rather than trying to derail OP's thread: create a thread describing why you think Bitcoin and capitalism don't go hand in hand (economics section would be a good bet), describe the economic system you would prefer to see, and defend it's superiority.