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Topic: If you own 3000 or more Bitcoin, Wall Street wants your advice - page 3. (Read 9887 times)

legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1020
Be A Digital Miner
He is asking for some criticism on an idea that he cannot tell you about.
The only part he can let you in on is that it will make him a lot of money but he needs to use your assets first.

No.  Again, not true.
That you CLAIM to be seeking advice on an idea that "you cannot tell us about".   TRUE.  Your own quote.
That you will make money from the use of our bitcoin?  IF THAT IS NOT TRUE, THEN PUT IT IN WRITING AND YOU HAVE THE COIN YOU SEEK.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
He can't say but I can since I ain't part of it

This is EXACTLY what that Canadian Fund for Gold & Silver is CEF.  And CEF is also the discription.  A Closed Ended Fund.

There are no redemptions in a Closed Fund.  Only Shares.  So he would get a group of old bitcoiners to pool their bitcoins and issue shares at a premium above the NAV.   Those shares would then be traded above the underlying asset.  Being that bitcoins can rise or fall the shares can rise or fall but the premium above the NAV can also rise and fall in relation to the actual value.

Kinda like CEF right now, there isn't much appeal for gold/silver holdings so their shares are selling very low because two things. Gold and Silver are down a lot from a year ago and also people do not think it is going to rise very soon so the premium above that NAV is low as well.  

So, the holders of this Bitcoin CEF would probably issue some of their shares to cash out but also hold a portion in the fund as that would rise as the value of bitcoin rises.

Sometimes additional shares can be issued and there are some small dividends paid and expenses etc..

But this is why he wants to partner since he has people that would like to buy the shares with their IRA which can't go buy bitcoins from Mt Gox.




Now, anyone here that feels like doing this can go do it especially if they have the trust of some old money bitcoiners


member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
He is asking for some criticism on an idea that he cannot tell you about.
The only part he can let you in on is that it will make him a lot of money but he needs to use your assets first.

No.  Again, not true.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1020
Be A Digital Miner
Also soliciting roughly $25 million in Bitcoin capital without having a clue where to start? Really?
No -- not soliciting....if I was I am well aware of sources of capital....
I was asking advice on this forum on the viability of something....which is not even an offering at all....I could not and would not even be close to accepting anyone's Bitcoin and never requested to.
He is asking for some criticism on an idea that he cannot tell you about.
The only part he can let you in on is that it will make him a lot of money but he needs to use your assets first.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10

Also soliciting roughly $25 million in Bitcoin capital without having a clue where to start? Really?

No -- not soliciting....if I was I am well aware of sources of capital....

I was asking advice on this forum on the viability of something....which is not even an offering at all....I could not and would not even be close to accepting anyone's Bitcoin and never requested to.

hero member
Activity: 667
Merit: 500
Just to throw this out there, here's something immediately slimy about this guy that puts off anybody with a good sense of intuition --

On this forum he says something early on that suggests he came here disparaging having tried reddit first, and on reddit he says that he tried here first.

That's very much in the wheelhouse of scammy manipulative con artist pandering techniques.

Also soliciting roughly $25 million in Bitcoin capital without having a clue where to start? Really?
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1020
Be A Digital Miner
You are completely and totally incorrect.

"Just" delivering What could be tens of thousands of BTC based on a huge number of transactions, collecting and reconciling which public keys to send the BTC to and matching those keys with account holders is a massive undertaking ....but it's irrelevant because you are totally incorrect anyway.

That's true, it's the reason the finance industry doesn't send money to a client's bank account.  I mean dealing with transactions, collecting and reconciling which bank account to send the money to and matching those accounts with their client's records, it's just too impossible.

This is the funniest post so far....
The world will be a great place when we have some sort of thingy that can manage to figure out which names go with which numbers and stuff...
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1020
Be A Digital Miner

For some there is no point.  For some there is value in having BTC in a widely recognized format.  Right now the teenage girls clothing store The Limited has more value than all bitcoins on planet earth.   
I thought you were "wall street", some sort of expert on stocks?  You think the The Limited is a teenage girls clothing store?
Really?  Victoria Secret, La Sensa, Henri Bendel, Bath and Body etc.   
Fine to try and compare the "market cap" of btc to something (although it is foolish unless you consider btc is an equity) but try and get some facts straight.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
The REIT concept is interesting...

"Have at least 75% of its total assets invested in real estate"

This leaves room for a bitcoin holding that could provide appreciation, the real estate holdings could be focused on short term income yield.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501

Redemptions can only be done in blocks of 10000 BTC.  To one entity.

....
Do you think you can buy 1 share of SLV and demand they deliver an ounce to you?

It's blocks of 50,000 shares of the ETF to basket holders which is a certain category of investors such as broker dealers who become members of that category.

Anyone who thinks this is simple to solve can probably make some easy money by calling the Winkelvoss bros and the regulators and straightening them out-- good bet they'd be glad for the advice .....fact it's, it's not that simple.... it's a major hurdle and I will bet that if the ETF ever is launched it will not be with the same S-1 we see.

Not sure why people are so convinced that there is no possibility anyone has come up with a better model than the ETF ...when clearly it is not working so far.

Right 50000 shares, each share representing 0.2 BTC = 10000 BTC.  It isn't the trusts problem what happens to the coins after redemption.

Ready to withdraw your claims below?




No one has to sell because of ETF redemptions. They just need to deliver BTC to the redeemers.

You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about.


You are completely and totally incorrect.

"Just" delivering What could be tens of thousands of BTC based on a huge number of transactions, collecting and reconciling which public keys to send the BTC to and matching those keys with account holders is a massive undertaking ....but it's irrelevant because you are totally incorrect anyway.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10

Redemptions can only be done in blocks of 10000 BTC.  To one entity.

....
Do you think you can buy 1 share of SLV and demand they deliver an ounce to you?


It's blocks of 50,000 shares of the ETF to basket holders which is a certain category of investors such as broker dealers who become members of that category.

Anyone who thinks this is simple to solve can probably make some easy money by calling the Winkelvoss bros and the regulators and straightening them out-- good bet they'd be glad for the advice .....fact it's, it's not that simple.... it's a major hurdle and I will bet that if the ETF ever is launched it will not be with the same S-1 we see.

Not sure why people are so convinced that there is no possibility anyone has come up with a better model than the ETF ...when clearly it is not working so far.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501


No one has to sell because of ETF redemptions. They just need to deliver BTC to the redeemers.

You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about.


You are completely and totally incorrect.

"Just" delivering What could be tens of thousands of BTC based on a huge number of transactions, collecting and reconciling which public keys to send the BTC to and matching those keys with account holders is a massive undertaking ....but it's irrelevant because you are totally incorrect anyway.

Redemptions can only be done in blocks of 10000 BTC.  To one entity.

If you're going to claim you read the filing, you should actually follow through.

Do you think you can buy 1 share of SLV and demand they deliver an ounce to you?
cp1
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
Stop using branwallets
You are completely and totally incorrect.

"Just" delivering What could be tens of thousands of BTC based on a huge number of transactions, collecting and reconciling which public keys to send the BTC to and matching those keys with account holders is a massive undertaking ....but it's irrelevant because you are totally incorrect anyway.

That's true, it's the reason the finance industry doesn't send money to a client's bank account.  I mean dealing with transactions, collecting and reconciling which bank account to send the money to and matching those accounts with their client's records, it's just too impossible.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10


No one has to sell because of ETF redemptions. They just need to deliver BTC to the redeemers.

You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about.


You are completely and totally incorrect.

"Just" delivering What could be tens of thousands of BTC based on a huge number of transactions, collecting and reconciling which public keys to send the BTC to and matching those keys with account holders is a massive undertaking ....but it's irrelevant because you are totally incorrect anyway.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501

Your apparent re-invention of the Winkelvoss wheel,


There is more than one way to skin a cat.

There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to create public offerings.

The Winkelvoss are smart guys but as far as I know they have never successfully raised funds for an offering, never been registered or even worked in the investment business and are fairly new to the space.


There are many major disadvantages of an ETF which someone who understands both spaces well can see:

Regulatory-   Despite whatever advice Winkelvoss received from the lawyers they paid to set up the vehicle, ETFs have several regulatory hurdles that other vehicles do not....they are learning this now as they are stuck in regulatory limbo.

Trading redemptions:  ETFs are required to allow DAILY redemptions.....this means that if there is a panic sell/ crash in the market and BTC is down 25% at 1pm ....then, because of that,  $50,000,000 worth of ETF shares are sold by holders of the ETF....then at market close the Winkelvoss would need to sell ANOTHER $50 mm in BTC on the market to meet those redemptions....therefor causing the price to spin further lower....they would not have the luxury of time because the redemptions must be met..this of course causes more of a panic sell, more volatility and is also a logistical nightmare.

Security/ logistics:  because of daily purchases and redemptions the security and logistics issues are significant.   Someone can literally buy $100 mm of the ETF on the market then sell it again the next day.  An EFT would need ready easy access to all those BTC for redemptions totally all holdings backed by public investors because theoretically all those investors could sell.   Securing the private keys AND having easy daily access to them is challenging.   They cannot simply be locked in a safe offsite....every single day there are net redemptions, someone (actually several people) would need to access those keys.  This brings up many other questions of logistics etc.

Volatilty:  because of daily purchases and redemptions, volatility would increase and panic sells would be worsened.

I thought of an ETF a long time ago, long before the Winkelvoss announcement and determined that these flaws and the accounting of private keys for tens of millions of dollars daily would be a logistical hassle -- it's possible the regulators agreed and this is why the ETF is now stuck in limbo.

It's a great idea but I believe there is a better way.

For the vehicle I'm researching it would employ some of the features similar to a REIT, Real Estate investment Trust and could trade daily on the open market but not be subject to daily redemptions (because holders would sell shares to other investors, not the fund as is the case with an ETF).



EDIT / added :  I'm confident there are better options than EFT --  however, the Winkelvoss bros might very well have solved these issues in some way I'm not aware of and their vehicle may not have the need for them to do daily redemptions ---  I won't negatively judge the details without knowing more than what has been listed in their documents because I don't think it's prudent to judge things unless one has facts


No one has to sell because of ETF redemptions. They just need to deliver BTC to the redeemers.

You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10

As I said earlier, you are making a CEF for bitcoin?

I guess this is the part where you say you can't say what you are doing


No one can legally discuss specifics like this in any way I know of publicly.

Sorry --- I'm trying to be MORE open, transparent and involved in the community than others in the investment business (despite the many drawbacks and some low quality interaction etc)--- very few people disclose their real identity, fewer still (if any) from the investment business.

I'll be open and responsive as possible but I just can't cross a line of what my lawyers tell me is not prudent.  The rules about public communications are very specific and places like chat boards/ bulletin boards are expressly included.

Some take this as a sign to be cautious of .....but the opposite is actually a major red flag.   Just as someone who uses the word "guaranteed", implies something is "approved" by the SEC etc....anyone who goes on a public forum and provides details about a potential offering is almost certainly in violation of securities laws and should be avoided.


sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250


"Central Fund's purpose is to hold gold and silver bullion on a secure basis for the convenience of investors in the shares of Central Fund."

As I said earlier, you are making a CEF for bitcoin?

I guess this is the part where you say you can't say what you are doing

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10

There's a lengthy discussion about this from half a year ago available in the Economics section:


The economics section post is about a completely different topic than what I am talking about (effect on exchanges)

I've read the S-1 including page 50 which covers redemptions.  I'm talking about the reality of how it will work and getting approvals for their method.

So far they haven't gotten the approvals and I can't almost guarantee they will not gain approval for the S-1 as written and this will be a key reason why.  I predicted this months ago and was correct.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
Trading redemptions:  ETFs are required to allow DAILY redemptions.....this means that if there is a panic sell/ crash in the market and BTC is down 25% at 1pm ....then, because of that,  $50,000,000 worth of ETF shares are sold by holders of the ETF....then at market close the Winkelvoss would need to sell ANOTHER $50 mm in BTC on the market to meet those redemptions....

I won't bother to pick out all the other quotes illustrating the full range of utter baloney here, but clearly I stand corrected: to rescue your credibility, you'll need to spend a few minutes not just reading up about how the Bitcoin protocol works, but you'll also need to revisit the basics of ETFs and in particular the distinction between Authorized Participants, normal investors, and the fund itself. It would also be worth considering actually reading the Winkelvii's S-1 filing before prognosticating about how you imagine redemptions might work.

There's a lengthy discussion about this from half a year ago available in the Economics section:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2688380

As I have no involvement in your particular scheme, it doesn't matter a jot to me whether you actually want to rescue your credibility, but I've offered the suggestion -- twice now -- that you're not helping yourself in the least in the eyes of the people you claim to want to reach, and to whom you claim to be able to offer something of value. So just take it as a friendly observation of you shooting yourself in the foot, and if you believe I'm simply wrong about that and want to disregard it or dismiss it entirely, that's your call, and I'll leave it to you to keep shooting.

By now, most or all of the large Bitcoin holders who grok finance will have left this thread, but best of luck with it all anyway. Anything that genuinely improves access and transparency for the wider community is bound to be a good thing.

Some of us stick around for the lolz.

It's always fun batting around the new wave of opportunists when they crawl out of their holes.
sr. member
Activity: 330
Merit: 255
Trading redemptions:  ETFs are required to allow DAILY redemptions.....this means that if there is a panic sell/ crash in the market and BTC is down 25% at 1pm ....then, because of that,  $50,000,000 worth of ETF shares are sold by holders of the ETF....then at market close the Winkelvoss would need to sell ANOTHER $50 mm in BTC on the market to meet those redemptions....

I won't bother to pick out all the other quotes illustrating the full range of utter baloney here, but clearly I stand corrected: to rescue your credibility, you'll need to spend a few minutes not just reading up about how the Bitcoin protocol works, but you'll also need to revisit the basics of ETFs and in particular the distinction between Authorized Participants, normal investors, and the fund itself. It would also be worth considering actually reading the Winkelvii's S-1 filing before prognosticating about how you imagine redemptions might work.

There's a lengthy discussion about this from half a year ago available in the Economics section:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2688380

As I have no involvement in your particular scheme, it doesn't matter a jot to me whether you actually want to rescue your credibility, but I've offered the suggestion -- twice now -- that you're not helping yourself in the least in the eyes of the people you claim to want to reach, and to whom you claim to be able to offer something of value. So just take it as a friendly observation of you shooting yourself in the foot, and if you believe I'm simply wrong about that and want to disregard it or dismiss it entirely, that's your call, and I'll leave it to you to keep shooting.

By now, most or all of the large Bitcoin holders who grok finance will have left this thread, but best of luck with it all anyway. Anything that genuinely improves access and transparency for the wider community is bound to be a good thing.
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