Topic: I'm on BFL's Side - page 2. (Read 2367 times)

I'm not blaming anyone for my actions and as a self-actualized individual I accept fully the responsibility of my own decisions. I assure you I have no need to "wake up" because I am not asleep. Nobody forced me into this arrangement, and nobody did for you either.

I'm not saying I had a "blissful experience", but apart from basically giving a company a 9-month, 0% interest loan I wasn't materially damaged. At least, I had every indication that I *probably wouldn't* have been until the FTC stepped in. Now, who knows if I'll ever get the rest my money back. I already received a refund for one of my orders. There's no reason to suspect I wouldn't have for the others.

I'm not sure if you read the terms of your agreement to preorder, but mine did say there were no refunds. Even knowing this, I asked for a refund as well on the chance that I could have received one, but I can't fault them for saying no - I agreed to those terms when I sent them my money. I also never said they were honoring refunds always, but they did begin for all orders starting August 19th, and earlier orders before then.

If it turns out they broke the law then yes, I absolutely would like to see justice meted out. However everything that has happened so far seems like a new company failing at customer expectation management, not a scam. That was my point. Just because they're taking longer to deliver doesn't mean they're being dishonest. I didn't say they weren't, just that from my perspective a scam wouldn't have responded/partially refunded my order at all.



Good point. I didn't actually give Bitcoin serious thought until March 11, 2013 (the day of the chain fork on version .8, which happened minutes after I finished my all-day download of the core client!), so unfortunately those weren't options for me anyway, but you're right. At almost any point buying BTC would have been better than mining, except under CPU/GPU conditions. Again, didn't learn that until after my first experience with BFL, but I still made a profit, so I'm not upset at the lost opportunity because it's too late to do anything about it.

Buying in april would also mean buying at the end of a large price spike. If you had purchased even a few weeks (or a month or two) earlier then you could have purchased a lot more (with BTC=20 you would have purchased 65 BTC = ~29k today, with BTC=13 you would have purchased 100 BTC = ~43k today).

Even though you paid in fiat for the machine you could have used that fiat to buy bitcoin

Amazing. I used to think like you. I was so forgiving and so patient.

Until I finally woke up. It took me about 10 months to wake up.

I ordered on August 17, 2013 (day 1). And a year later, they still had not delivered. Sure they started offering refunds... 10 months later. They REFUSED me a refund no matter how politely I asked after month 6. I asked 3 times and got declined each time. So, no, they were not honoring refunds always. They play by their own rules. You perhaps just didn't happen to get screwed by them, but defending them is not called for imo. Perhaps read what they've done to other people before sharing your blissful experience. I think you may not realize the magnitude of damage caused to others.

Then to top it all off to learn of the massive misappropriation of company funds for personal purchases, you begin to learn that there was unethical use of customer funds as well.  I personally feel that there is a very good chance that the Monarch could have been completed WAY sooner had they actually spent the funds necessary to speed production to the point where the product was finished faster.

Actually it would be worth $5,200 (1300/100 = 13 BTC). Yes, a way better return (and had I known I would have done things differently), but I paid in dollars, not BTC, which would have been even worse from an ROI perspective. (5 BTC returned on 13 BTC invested, ouch!)

In fact, it would appear that it is not profitable to buy mining equipment using BTC at all anymore, since no miner will be able to recoup the amount of BTC it would cost given current price and network growth, no?

They were issuing refunds and delivering product. That isn't the behavior of a fraudulent company. I'm not saying they're a wonderful company with great customer service, just that your interpretation is that they are scam artists and I have not experienced any behavior along those lines.

Perhaps you received far less than you paid because you purchased your miner when BTC were ~$100 each? In that case, you paid ~50 BTC for a miner that may have broken even? Unfortunate, but not their fault.

The problem with your argument is that the reason you were able to ROI is because the price of bitcoin increased. If instead of spending $1,300 on a BFL miner, you instead bought $1,300 worth of bitcoin your investment would be worth well into the six figure range today.

You got lucky on your return bringing you more BTC than you paid. I got MUCH LESS than I paid.

You should ask yourself, "Why does this company force people to wait 30 days for a refund anyway?" Does any other company you know of do that? I know the reasons they gave (because they told me too) and they are all lies. It's just another example of the crookedness that is BFL.

I'm sorry but people who accept things like endless delays and "30-45 days for refund" as acceptable are sheeple who can't judge what is right and what is wrong. BFL has wronged people, and if you can't see that then I'm sorry but you need to take off the blindfold.

BFL is fraudulent and deceptive too often to ignore.

They deserve no defending nor any kind words.

Let the slithering snake die its slow death.

It has been coming a long time.

Good riddance.

hi what is bfl?

A lot of people are glad that BFL is "in trouble" right now. They believe it is and was a scam, and that everyone who ordered through them is getting what they deserved. I'd like to share my experiences with BFL.

I purchased my first mining rig through BFL in March of 2013, with the expectation that it would deliver in September. It finally arrived in October, and from my original purchase of $1300, I managed to mine about 5 BTC over the next ~6 months. Even with the delays in shipping, the BTC I mined were worth significantly more than the $1300 I paid for the unit, and even now had I not sold earlier, would still have resulted in a net gain of over 50% in 11 months.

It was for this reason, as well as the fact that I truly believed that the second time around BFL would have resolved their production issues, that I ordered some Monarchs. And I did so fully understanding and accepting that it was a preorder and that their dates were not guaranteed, like any adult who is responsible for their actions and has done their due diligence should. When production delays were announced the first time, it was understandable, but frustrating, but I had experienced them before and it was made clear at the time I placed my order that the dates given were estimates but may not be met.

However, as production delays continued, I admit was getting worried. In Bitcoin, after all, most people are aware that your money can just vanish at any moment. The day that Josh announced his final offer and they opened up refunds to all customers (pretty sure that was August 19), I requested an immediate refund for all of my orders. By the time they would have arrived, with the lack of performance they had promised, it was no longer worth it to own the monarchs. Many others must have felt the same. My request was handled virtually immediately, and I had a resolution promised within a few days.

I was quoted a refund time frame of 30-45 days, and on September 16 (less than 30 days) I received a full refund for the order I paid for with BTC. It turned out to be more BTC than I paid originally because of the USD price falling. The remaining orders I had paid via wire transfer, and should have been refunded in the next 2 weeks based on the 45 day timeframe. Now, their production may not be stellar, but every interaction I've had with their customer service team has ended positively for me.

Enter the FTC. Now, assuming the hearing on the 29th goes against BFL (and let's face it, it probably will), I may never get my money refunded. Not because of BFL, but because of the FTC and the actions of a few upset individuals. There was no indication that my money would not be refunded, and while I am disappointed at the production time of BFL, at no point have they acted in a manner of someone running a scam. I never would have received the first refund if that had been the case; it would have been easier to continually delay me. As far as I'm concerned there would not have been a problem unless I had not received a refund by October 3, which has yet to pass. I guess we'll never know how that would play out.

I would guess that most of the complaints filed were done so by impatient people who were upset that their orders didn't ship by the original estimated dates, and had BFL not been raided, their orders would likely have shipped over the coming weeks, just as they did with the gen 1 miners in 2013. From my view, the impatience of others has potentially injured all parties currently waiting for their products to deliver or their refunds to clear.


Let's put this in perspective. According to the FTC, there were over 2 million complaints filed in 2013 (http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/02/ftc-announces-top-national-consumer-complaints-2013). Assuming the same number are filed this year (likely to be higher due to massive credit card breaches at target, home depot, etc.), the 300 complaints filed against BFL represent around 1/100th of 1% of the total claims filed (.00015). And these complaints were filed over at least the last 2 years, not just this year. Yet this is sufficient to shut down a business that by all indications was acting on terms that customers agreed to at the time of sale? This is alarming and disturbing, and is setting a very dangerous precedent. Compare these numbers to banks and lenders, which received over 150,000 complaints last year, yet how many of them are treated this way?

This is setting an extremely dangerous precedent. While BFL has certainly screwed up with their ability to deliver a relevant product on time, they have acted appropriately according to the terms of sale everyone who ordered agreed to, and the FTC should never have been involved.