Where do you get the 99% figure? In my experience, every merchant waits for at least a confirmation. Bitpay min is 1, max 6. Exchanges: 6. Poker sites: 4, etc.
The details of the protocol are irrelevant to the end user.
Topic: I'm so tired of seeing the complaint on block confirmation times. Here's why. - page 3. (Read 2636 times)
December 24, 2014, 11:35:02 PM
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
December 24, 2014, 10:30:50 PM
good post Colin.
but .... yeah.... a noob is likely to complain
again in about a week.
but .... yeah.... a noob is likely to complain
again in about a week.
December 24, 2014, 10:29:25 PM
Or send a bank wire transfer.
Exactly. That is the true comparison to a confirmation on the blockchain.
December 24, 2014, 10:26:18 PM
Or send a bank wire transfer.
Compare the speed of the ironically-named SWIFT system to the speed of the bitcoin network.
Compare the speed of the ironically-named SWIFT system to the speed of the bitcoin network.
December 24, 2014, 09:47:22 PM
I'm so tired of seeing this complaint on block times.
If you are one of the complainers, then here's an experiment I want you to perform and then explain to me how it is possible:
Transfer some bitcoin to your blockchain.info wallet and watch/listen for how long it takes to get there. That's right-- It takes about 5 seconds until you hear the *Beep*. Now think for a second, how did they do that? If they aren't waiting for the entire 10 minute block confirmation time, then how do they know money was sent?
Any merchant can use this method to see a transaction propagating through a majority of the nodes! This whole "10 minute" thing is given way too much importance because it doesn't matter for 99% of transactions. It's just something that people can focus on to complain about because they don't understand this. You can see any transaction on the network nearly instantly.
So the problem must be with the wallet you are using if you can't see an instantaneous transaction. So, rather than complaining about 10 minutes confirmation time which frankly doesn't matter in 99% of situations, then the solution is to get your wallet to support the same technology that blockchain.info is using to SHOW the transaction occurring in near-realtime. Not to complain about 10 minute block times.
And you could argue that double-spends could make this method irrelevant, but if you are THAT concerned for the particular transaction, then go ahead and wait for the full confirmation. But that level of verification is a very small % of the time. Not many people want to steal a $5 cup of coffee bad enough to do a double spend on it. And yes, I'd wait for a few confirmations if I was transferring 100 BTC.
The point is: Block time doesn't matter for 99% of transactions. And for the 1% where it might matter (bigger purchases), 10-30 minutes is an acceptable waiting period!
A Misconception:
I think that the complaints about the block confirmation time stem from a misconception of what is happening with credit cards, which causes a person not to compare apples to apples: Your credit card and debit transactions are not instantly confirmed either. At stores these transactions are given credibility "immediately" but still take 3-5 days to actually move through the payment processors between bank accounts. 3-5 days is WAY slower than 10-30 minutes for a block confirmation if you want to compare apples to apples. The problem is people aren't comparing apples to apples when they compare 10 minute block times with credit card transactions. The credit card transactions aren't "confirmed" either at this point. The payment processor is simply fronting the money (just like blockchain.info shows the transaction instantly) while the transaction goes through. These credit card payment processors are basing this method on the same logic that blockchain.info uses to instantly display transactions: It's the fact that most transactions aren't fraudulent. And who wastes their time trying to defraud a system to steal a $5 cup of coffee?
Correct comparisons:
Bitcoin purchase = appears within seconds on the network
Credit card purchase = appears to be completed within seconds
(TIE)
Bitcoin money is ACTUALLY transferred = 10 minute average time
Credit card money is ACTUALLY transferred = 3-5 days (or longer)*
(BITCOIN wins)
*If I remember correctly, Andreas Antonopoulos said in one of his videos that credit card transactions aren't settled for up to 30 days. Now how does that compare to 10 minutes? Compare apples to apples.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lastly, from satoshi's own mouth on the subject of verifying fast payments:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3819
If you are one of the complainers, then here's an experiment I want you to perform and then explain to me how it is possible:
Transfer some bitcoin to your blockchain.info wallet and watch/listen for how long it takes to get there. That's right-- It takes about 5 seconds until you hear the *Beep*. Now think for a second, how did they do that? If they aren't waiting for the entire 10 minute block confirmation time, then how do they know money was sent?
Any merchant can use this method to see a transaction propagating through a majority of the nodes! This whole "10 minute" thing is given way too much importance because it doesn't matter for 99% of transactions. It's just something that people can focus on to complain about because they don't understand this. You can see any transaction on the network nearly instantly.
So the problem must be with the wallet you are using if you can't see an instantaneous transaction. So, rather than complaining about 10 minutes confirmation time which frankly doesn't matter in 99% of situations, then the solution is to get your wallet to support the same technology that blockchain.info is using to SHOW the transaction occurring in near-realtime. Not to complain about 10 minute block times.
And you could argue that double-spends could make this method irrelevant, but if you are THAT concerned for the particular transaction, then go ahead and wait for the full confirmation. But that level of verification is a very small % of the time. Not many people want to steal a $5 cup of coffee bad enough to do a double spend on it. And yes, I'd wait for a few confirmations if I was transferring 100 BTC.
The point is: Block time doesn't matter for 99% of transactions. And for the 1% where it might matter (bigger purchases), 10-30 minutes is an acceptable waiting period!
A Misconception:
I think that the complaints about the block confirmation time stem from a misconception of what is happening with credit cards, which causes a person not to compare apples to apples: Your credit card and debit transactions are not instantly confirmed either. At stores these transactions are given credibility "immediately" but still take 3-5 days to actually move through the payment processors between bank accounts. 3-5 days is WAY slower than 10-30 minutes for a block confirmation if you want to compare apples to apples. The problem is people aren't comparing apples to apples when they compare 10 minute block times with credit card transactions. The credit card transactions aren't "confirmed" either at this point. The payment processor is simply fronting the money (just like blockchain.info shows the transaction instantly) while the transaction goes through. These credit card payment processors are basing this method on the same logic that blockchain.info uses to instantly display transactions: It's the fact that most transactions aren't fraudulent. And who wastes their time trying to defraud a system to steal a $5 cup of coffee?
Correct comparisons:
Bitcoin purchase = appears within seconds on the network
Credit card purchase = appears to be completed within seconds
(TIE)
Bitcoin money is ACTUALLY transferred = 10 minute average time
Credit card money is ACTUALLY transferred = 3-5 days (or longer)*
(BITCOIN wins)
*If I remember correctly, Andreas Antonopoulos said in one of his videos that credit card transactions aren't settled for up to 30 days. Now how does that compare to 10 minutes? Compare apples to apples.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Lastly, from satoshi's own mouth on the subject of verifying fast payments:
Besides, 10 minutes is too long to verify that payment is good. It needs to be as fast as swiping a credit card is today.
See the snack machine thread, I outline how a payment processor could verify payments well enough, actually really well (much lower fraud rate than credit cards), in something like 10 seconds or less. If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3819
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