IMF urges El Salvador to remove Bitcoin as legal tender

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-60135552

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

They highlighted the "large risks associated with the use of Bitcoin on financial stability, financial integrity and consumer protection" and with issuing Bitcoin-backed bonds.

We don't know what is good for us, but they know it.
[/quote]

It seems a bit like economic blackmail and it's not really the IMF's place to dictate the currency choices of a country in this way. They might attach strings to any future loans, such as not allowing them to be converted into cryptocurrency or specifying that the loans must have a defined end usage with traceability. However we often see that these financial institutions are driven by very old policies, that while they might be prudent and have a history to back them up - are very slow to adapt to new conditions. They should be helping countries to set up their own cryptocurrencies, if they won't support current ones, instead of trying to interfere in domestic policymaking.

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Quote from: Vaculin on February 07, 2022, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: Flexystar on February 07, 2022, 12:52:30 PM

Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

Certainly prices have been dropped a lot and the same case is in front of them now. I think there has to be well thought plan when El Salvador first thought of going all crypto! They must have had plan for such calamities as they every kid around the globe know how unstable the crypto currencies are. I’m certain that IMF is also trying to be one of the authority who wants to show everyone that they are not in favour of crypto currencies. So they are going all harsh about it and trying to manipulate other through this act of Cold War.

Obviously they have power because they have funds for lending and they will also be partnered by those governments who wish to take down the crypto from face of the earth.

You see the picture here ?

Since IMF is covered by the most of the centralized countries, then it should promote the use of fiat or dollar, and should show opposition on bitcoin or any decentralized cryptocurrency. But in case with El Salvador, IMF has no power to control the decision of a president whether to drop bitcoin or not. But i'm afraid that El Salvador will be deprived for some loan opportunities from other big companies in the future as IMF has all its strong connections to most of the lending companies. Bitcoin may be a big barrier for now, but it can also make a big difference for El Salvador once it will prosper and reach a gigantic price increase in the future.

I doubt that Bukele is going to reverse his decision, the issue is what will do his successor, even if Bukele can win the election again for a second period he is not going to remain in power forever and as such at some point he will have to give the power away to someone else, and if by that time bitcoin is still not strongly established as a coin that is widely used by those living at El Salvador there is a possibility that all what he did for bitcoin is reversed.

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Quote from: Flexystar on February 07, 2022, 12:52:30 PM

Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

Certainly prices have been dropped a lot and the same case is in front of them now. I think there has to be well thought plan when El Salvador first thought of going all crypto! They must have had plan for such calamities as they every kid around the globe know how unstable the crypto currencies are. I’m certain that IMF is also trying to be one of the authority who wants to show everyone that they are not in favour of crypto currencies. So they are going all harsh about it and trying to manipulate other through this act of Cold War.

Obviously they have power because they have funds for lending and they will also be partnered by those governments who wish to take down the crypto from face of the earth.

You see the picture here ?

Since IMF is covered by the most of the centralized countries, then it should promote the use of fiat or dollar, and should show opposition on bitcoin or any decentralized cryptocurrency. But in case with El Salvador, IMF has no power to control the decision of a president whether to drop bitcoin or not. But i'm afraid that El Salvador will be deprived for some loan opportunities from other big companies in the future as IMF has all its strong connections to most of the lending companies. Bitcoin may be a big barrier for now, but it can also make a big difference for El Salvador once it will prosper and reach a gigantic price increase in the future.

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Quote from: jackg on January 26, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

I'm assuming the recommendation is coming from the idea that El Salvador might use some borrowed funds to buy bitcoin.

I'm not certain on that but if it is the case, it'll reduce the countries chances of paying back debts in the immediate term (for example, if the price crashes).

Fees would probably be the thing to complain about with bitcoin and not inflation but there's potential el Salvador did this because the imf didn't offer them much in the first place.

Certainly prices have been dropped a lot and the same case is in front of them now. I think there has to be well thought plan when El Salvador first thought of going all crypto! They must have had plan for such calamities as they every kid around the globe know how unstable the crypto currencies are. I’m certain that IMF is also trying to be one of the authority who wants to show everyone that they are not in favour of crypto currencies. So they are going all harsh about it and trying to manipulate other through this act of Cold War.

Obviously they have power because they have funds for lending and they will also be partnered by those governments who wish to take down the crypto from face of the earth.

You see the picture here ?

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Quote from: lalabotax on February 04, 2022, 07:37:22 AM

Quote from: oHnK on February 03, 2022, 12:39:00 PM

For making BTC as a legal tender indeed much challanges fully, We can't really use it as a main legal tender and replace fiat. The big difference between fiat or crypto, is the regulator.

Sure. It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

This is their main worry, I think the community was surprised by how quickly bitcoin became legal tender at El Salvador, after all it came out of nowhere but we were still happy about it, I think the IMF was also incredibly surprised by what happened, they could not believe that a country did this, so they are fearing that we see a chain reaction and that many more countries do the same, this is why they are so adamant to try to get El Salvador to reverse that law, as they are trying to contain bitcoin before it is too late.

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Well, that could be a problem as I am sure El Salvador is geting more out of IMF than it is out of BTC, at least at the moment. There is no way they would throw that away. Now, removing BTC as legal tender does not mean removing BTC complently. It still might be a crypto heaven and it could be that El Slavador has a more open aproach to regulating crypto.

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Quote from: el kaka22 on February 04, 2022, 11:04:29 PM

Quote from: lalabotax on February 04, 2022, 07:37:22 AM

It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

If you really want to hurt places like IMF and big banks and even big nations by using Bitcoin and making it your legal tender then you also have to accept the fact that they won't help you. Why would they help you or give you a loan when you are doing something that hurts the very being of them? This is why we have so many different situations here people do not understand.

IMF is basically saying that they can't stop El Salvador from using bitcoin as legal tender but as long as they do that then IMF will not give them a loan. That makes sense, if the whole world turned bitcoin to legal tender in all nations then IMF would lose power and they do not want that. There is nothing really shocking about this, if my entire existence dependent on El Salvador losing money during this period and not doing great (because it could be example to other small nations) then I would warn them too.

Honestly, IMF may say what they want to say and propose orders but that won't give them the power to contradict on what's the final decision of the president. And i don't think Bukele is taking all these things selfishly and all for his own advantages, but more on for the welfare of the country. I can see that there is a great challenge now on the side of the president as how he can prove that his decision will work despite of the opposition of IMF, as a lot of countries have been eyeing El Salvador from now on.

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The answer is simple:
1. Because having received an IMF loan, the money will immediately be turned into bitcoin, which contradicts the logic of IMF lending.
2. Bitcoin does nothing to save and restore the economy. Moreover, it distracts from real problems and real solutions. What does hiding problems mean, which means a little later, this problem will "shoot" even worse.
And there is no need to look for global conspiracies - bitcoin cannot really save the economy, it can create the appearance of security, and this is very bad, it's like hiding the presence of an illness from a patient.

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Quote from: darewaller on February 06, 2022, 02:06:25 AM

Quote from: hyudien on February 05, 2022, 02:43:36 AM

Broadly speaking, the IMF does not want El Salvador to be free from the rules they apply to each country to continue to make loans as large as possible and can be binding at any time. Now the IMF's concerns are starting to become clear that El Salvador has shown other countries to be more open to Bitcoin and provide financial freedom. I see it as the IMF's unwillingness that in the future other countries will follow in El Salvador's footsteps and then be able to quickly pay off their debts to the world bank.

As a result, El Salvador achievements have gradually opened up the sector to break away from dependence on money from the IMF.

Honestly, IMF doesn't really "enforce" anything to nations if you ask me, they can't really do that because they are not a country or a region, they are a bank. It means that they can only tell people that they won't loan money to them. Big nations uses this smartly, they could build things that bring in profit or taxes with the loans they get and then use that profit to pay it back over time.

Instead of paying others to do it, why not get a loan as a government and do it yourself? Some may think that is socialistic, but the reality is that we are not building car manufacturers or anything here, it is roads, hospitals airports etc etc which is normal for a nation to do it themselves. This means that El Salvador going against IMF only means they can't get a loan from them, nothing else, if they want to get a loan then they can't do what IMF tells them not to do.

It's pointless of them to demand El Salvador to stop using Bitcoin as legal tender if they couldn't do anything about it right?

A country taking a loan from IMF has to provide collateral actually. Obviously, they want loans not getting paid so they can hold the countries by the neck and still follow orders but if El Salvador gets out of debt what is there for IMF to make them accountable? I'm not familiar with this financial organization but I'm sure as big as they are can do harm to disobedient presidents like Bukele.

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Quote from: hyudien on February 05, 2022, 02:43:36 AM

Broadly speaking, the IMF does not want El Salvador to be free from the rules they apply to each country to continue to make loans as large as possible and can be binding at any time. Now the IMF's concerns are starting to become clear that El Salvador has shown other countries to be more open to Bitcoin and provide financial freedom. I see it as the IMF's unwillingness that in the future other countries will follow in El Salvador's footsteps and then be able to quickly pay off their debts to the world bank.

As a result, El Salvador achievements have gradually opened up the sector to break away from dependence on money from the IMF.

Honestly, IMF doesn't really "enforce" anything to nations if you ask me, they can't really do that because they are not a country or a region, they are a bank. It means that they can only tell people that they won't loan money to them. Big nations uses this smartly, they could build things that bring in profit or taxes with the loans they get and then use that profit to pay it back over time.

Instead of paying others to do it, why not get a loan as a government and do it yourself? Some may think that is socialistic, but the reality is that we are not building car manufacturers or anything here, it is roads, hospitals airports etc etc which is normal for a nation to do it themselves. This means that El Salvador going against IMF only means they can't get a loan from them, nothing else, if they want to get a loan then they can't do what IMF tells them not to do.

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Quote from: paxmao on January 26, 2022, 05:43:45 PM

Scared they are young padawan. Just imagine that El Salvador is successful and manages to bring the country to a level of prosperity and independence from the world financial institutions. Scaring to death that is for the IMF young Jedis.

Jokes apart, IMF sets the rules to get funding, nothing new, the conditions are frequently nasty and tend to punish the lower strata of the population and have stronger effects on countries that have low ability to capture funds in the markets. This is just another example of inherence in internal affairs.

Broadly speaking, the IMF does not want El Salvador to be free from the rules they apply to each country to continue to make loans as large as possible and can be binding at any time. Now the IMF's concerns are starting to become clear that El Salvador has shown other countries to be more open to Bitcoin and provide financial freedom. I see it as the IMF's unwillingness that in the future other countries will follow in El Salvador's footsteps and then be able to quickly pay off their debts to the world bank.

As a result, El Salvador achievements have gradually opened up the sector to break away from dependence on money from the IMF.

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Quote from: lalabotax on February 04, 2022, 07:37:22 AM

It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

If you really want to hurt places like IMF and big banks and even big nations by using Bitcoin and making it your legal tender then you also have to accept the fact that they won't help you. Why would they help you or give you a loan when you are doing something that hurts the very being of them? This is why we have so many different situations here people do not understand.

IMF is basically saying that they can't stop El Salvador from using bitcoin as legal tender but as long as they do that then IMF will not give them a loan. That makes sense, if the whole world turned bitcoin to legal tender in all nations then IMF would lose power and they do not want that. There is nothing really shocking about this, if my entire existence dependent on El Salvador losing money during this period and not doing great (because it could be example to other small nations) then I would warn them too.

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Quote from: macson on February 04, 2022, 09:49:28 AM

Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

IMF doesn't mean to protect consumers, they just protect their control over people....i really salute the hard mentality that President El Salvador has, fighting the IMF is quite a tough job, their threat is indeed very big but Nayib's trust in Bitcoin is really not in doubt. "long live" president el salvador, hope your country can be strong and continue to survive making Bitcoin a legal tender there.

IMF is backed by the state so it will always find ways on how to control the people to stick with the US dollar and stay away from cryptocurrencies. But then, Bukele tends to be more tough than the IMF as he was never threatened with the IMF opposition to bitcoin, and instead take advantage on the crypto market by adding more bitcoins while they are cheap. I just hope El Salvador can withstand all of these, and when this happens, other countries will start to adopt bitcoin too.

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Quote from: Fatunad on February 04, 2022, 03:43:40 PM

Quote from: Rruchi man on February 04, 2022, 12:12:40 PM

Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

It seems the IMF fears that many other countries are soon likely to follow in the steps of El Salvador. Now under pressure, i hope the president of El Salvador doesn't bulge and remove bitcoin as a legal tender, it will be a big disappoint and set back to the crypto community. In a long run, say the current president doesn't bulge, i hope his successor will be one who shares his current plan to make El Salvador a safe haven for bitcoin, so that there can be continuity.

Too early to talk about continuity yet we wont be seeing the President would pass out anytime soon but its not a bad presumption though and as we can see that the recent deep didnt
really bulge in regarding into their decisions on making it as a legal tender since they are aware with volatility issues or risks of bitcoin in the first place.
For sure this would be an eye opener on some countries on which that a country do able to withstand and didnt really make themselves affected on that
recent deep.

I can see that Bukele is even more determined to continue investing in bitcoin as it has bought recently 410 bitcoins which they add more on the country's previous hodlings. So its like Bukele was not really affected at all if ever the IMF will not grant their loan anymore. After all, the reason that El Salvador has adopted bitcoin as a legal tender is to create progress in the country and when it prosper, there is no need to add more debts anymore as bitcoin will hedge against inflation, and can be a great asset that will lessen the poverty rate of the country.

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Quote from: Rruchi man on February 04, 2022, 12:12:40 PM

Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

It seems the IMF fears that many other countries are soon likely to follow in the steps of El Salvador. Now under pressure, i hope the president of El Salvador doesn't bulge and remove bitcoin as a legal tender, it will be a big disappoint and set back to the crypto community. In a long run, say the current president doesn't bulge, i hope his successor will be one who shares his current plan to make El Salvador a safe haven for bitcoin, so that there can be continuity.

Too early to talk about continuity yet we wont be seeing the President would pass out anytime soon but its not a bad presumption though and as we can see that the recent deep didnt
really bulge in regarding into their decisions on making it as a legal tender since they are aware with volatility issues or risks of bitcoin in the first place.
For sure this would be an eye opener on some countries on which that a country do able to withstand and didnt really make themselves affected on that
recent deep.

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

It seems the IMF fears that many other countries are soon likely to follow in the steps of El Salvador. Now under pressure, i hope the president of El Salvador doesn't bulge and remove bitcoin as a legal tender, it will be a big disappoint and set back to the crypto community. In a long run, say the current president doesn't bulge, i hope his successor will be one who shares his current plan to make El Salvador a safe haven for bitcoin, so that there can be continuity.

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Quote from: bitmover on January 26, 2022, 07:38:55 AM

So, International Monetary fund demands that El Salvador remove bitcoin as legal tender, otherwise it refuses to give loans to the country.

They are doing so to protect the people, as bitcoin will "bring instability and inflation"

How come a deflationary currency will increase the inflation ? WTF!

they continue, saying that IMF wants to protect the consumers:

IMF doesn't mean to protect consumers, they just protect their control over people....i really salute the hard mentality that President El Salvador has, fighting the IMF is quite a tough job, their threat is indeed very big but Nayib's trust in Bitcoin is really not in doubt. "long live" president el salvador, hope your country can be strong and continue to survive making Bitcoin a legal tender there.

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Man, being un this industry for years now, meanings behind meanings get easier to understand. Obviously, the IMF is steeping on the leader of El Salvador and the people within it's government. Just imagine how dumb it would be to tell a leader you don't know this or that when there are reputable and very knowledgeable people within his circle that has their own share of topics/subjects to take care of that they specialise on so the the team and it's leader can come up with a great decision/solution to a certain problem or predicament. Do they really think that El Salvador don't really know what they are doing or maybe they just think that they can easily fool the leaders and the masses with a few words expressing concern and compassion when there clearly has ulterior motives fuming from their crappy words? Jeez.

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Quote from: oHnK on February 03, 2022, 12:39:00 PM

For making BTC as a legal tender indeed much challanges fully, We can't really use it as a main legal tender and replace fiat. The big difference between fiat or crypto, is the regulator.

Sure. It must require big challenges because it is against the world governments and the centralized system. IMF as one of the centralized organizations must be unhappy if more countries adopt BTC as a legal tender. More countries use BTC as a legal tender, which means more countries are probably to be independent. IMF doesn't want this to happen because they cannot regulate world finance again in the future.

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Quote from: Kasabus on February 03, 2022, 12:41:07 PM

Quote from: lumbanrang on February 02, 2022, 12:16:09 AM

First of all, how could a deflationary coin like Bitcoin cause inflation? as far as I know, the main factor in inflation is an increase in the prices of goods and services (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111314/what-causes-inflation-and-does-anyone-gain-it.asp) . And also El Salvador not only use Bitcoin as their currency, they also use USD to support their economy. So the IMF's reasoning doesn't make sense. Moreover, El Salvador is sovereign over the regulations in their country, and the IMF as a global financial organization should respect any decision made by the president of El Salvador.

I think the discussion has become too complex already. From my own understanding, if IMF cannot convince El Salvador to drop bitcoin as a legal tender, i think the best way is to regulate bitcoin in El Salvador. That way, IMF may stop urging El Salvador to narrow down the scope of bitcoin or drop it. Here are also some countries that have regulated, or planning to regulate the use of crypto. Read here: https://www.reuters.com/markets/currencies/imf-asks-el-salvador-drop-bitcoin-more-countries-clamp-down-2022-01-26/

It is true that in some countries the circulation of cryptocurrencies is regulated. The government reasons that they want to protect their people from things like fraud, money laundering, etc. https://www.ndtv.com/business/5-reasons-why-cryptocurrency-regulation-is-important-2637741. But I think the regulation of cryptocurrency is quite funny because cryptocurrency itself is a digital asset that was launched to become a decentralized financial system that is free from government or third-party intervention.

Topic: IMF urges El Salvador to remove Bitcoin as legal tender (Read 400 times)