in early stages of bitcoin era, the war on exchanges has started doing victims - page 2.

Rygon

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Quote from: epetroel on April 18, 2013, 11:16:37 AM

Quote from: Rygon on April 18, 2013, 10:24:46 AM

The issue with Dwolla is that back in the day they screwed over Tradehill (and probably MtGox and ExchangeBitcoins.com as well) to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

In a nutshell, it went like this:

1. Dwolla's marketing claimed that Dwolla payments were irreversable.
2. Because of (1) lots of exchanges accepted Dwolla.
3. People started defrauding Dwolla using stolen bank account information, transferring money to exchanges and running off with the coins.
4. Rather than sucking it up and improving their security measures, Dwolla started secretly debiting the exchanges Dwolla accounts - erasing the fraudulant transactions and clawing the money back from the exchanges.
5. Once the exchanges figured this out, there was quite an uproar. ExchangeBitcoins stopped accepting Dwolla and closed down soon after. Tradehill did the same (and sued Dwolla as I understand it).

Since then it seems like Dwolla has beefed up their verification standards so this is less of an issue now, but lots of people are still (justifiably) butthurt about it.

Ahh. OK. Thanks for the explanation. I'd be pissed to if I ended up getting screwed because of Dwolla too, even if it seems like they have fixed things.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: dbanga85 on April 17, 2013, 05:32:35 PM

you don't need Exchanges to get Cash or BTC..

Well an individual might not but a business does. If businesses can't sell coins (in mass i.e. thousands of BTC a week) to cover their USD costs then they can't accept Bitcoins. If businesses can't accept Bitcoins then what is the point in user adoption.

Note I am not bearish. These challenges will be overcome just pointing out that despite you being able to meet someone at starbucks to exchange $100 for BTC doesn't mean that exchanges aren't necessary. I will give you one example. In March we sold about $500K worth of bullion for BTC. I am not going to meet people in person every day to try an unload $500K worth of BTC. Even if I could it would massively increase my costs/time AND I would become a bitcoin speculator (I likely would need to be long tens of thousands of BTC at any period of time).

Now imagine a company doing 10x as much volume or 100x. Even that isn't nothing like a major corporation. Exchanges are necessary.

Viceroy

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Quote from: NikolaTesla on April 17, 2013, 07:26:44 PM

Exchanges will come and go, that's just part of the evolution of bitcoin. As exchanges close, others will open. We've seen several stories recently of venture capitalists and entrepreneurs starting new bitcoin exchanges and there's even the guy who is creating bitcoin ATM's.

we cannot wait. we need better yesterday

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-next-mt-gox-mtgox-20-179147

epetroel

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Quote from: Rygon on April 18, 2013, 10:24:46 AM

Quote from: BTC Books on April 17, 2013, 07:24:54 PM

Quote from: Luis_GT on April 17, 2013, 07:22:25 PM

You haven't been here long since you failed to mention tradehill Grin

Indeed. There's a reason why most of the old-timers won't use Dwolla, and never will.

What's the issue with Dwolla? If it's only used as a passthrough from a local bank account to MtGox, there shouldn't be any risk of losing funds. The fee is negligible, the only downside is that it usually takes about a week to funds.

The issue with Dwolla is that back in the day they screwed over Tradehill (and probably MtGox and ExchangeBitcoins.com as well) to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

In a nutshell, it went like this:

1. Dwolla's marketing claimed that Dwolla payments were irreversable.
2. Because of (1) lots of exchanges accepted Dwolla.
3. People started defrauding Dwolla using stolen bank account information, transferring money to exchanges and running off with the coins.
4. Rather than sucking it up and improving their security measures, Dwolla started secretly debiting the exchanges Dwolla accounts - erasing the fraudulant transactions and clawing the money back from the exchanges.
5. Once the exchanges figured this out, there was quite an uproar. ExchangeBitcoins stopped accepting Dwolla and closed down soon after. Tradehill did the same (and sued Dwolla as I understand it).

Since then it seems like Dwolla has beefed up their verification standards so this is less of an issue now, but lots of people are still (justifiably) butthurt about it.

BitcoinAshley

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Nice history lesson here. So we can see that throughout the history of bitcoins, NUMEROUS exchanges have been closing, some returning funds, some just stealing funds, some being hacked -
And bitcoins aren't $2.

So the FUD is useless.

Exchanges have CONSTANTLY been closing, hacked, looted by owners, shut down by banks - for as long as the old-timers can remember.

And bitcoins aren't $2.

And are still gaining in popularity and adoption.

LOL. Go bitcoin!

Wait, there are people saying that P2P will kill bitcoin -
1) It is very unlikely that we will ever have to resort to 100% P2P, seeing as exchanges have been shutting down left and right for the last 2 years yet I still have more exchanges to choose from than I can count on my ten fingers.
2) How do you get fiat cash money? How do you get apples and oranges? What about shampoo or a car? OH RITE... P2P. Tell me more about how all of those markets are dead...

LOL. Keep trying, FUD trolls.

kokjo

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You are WRONG!

Quote from: dg2010 on April 18, 2013, 10:50:52 AM

Quote from: kokjo on April 17, 2013, 05:17:20 PM

if current system is too bad, go use person-2-person transactions.

Because that's so easy to do right? Wake up. Bitcoin will die a slow death if the only thing left is P2P exchange.

no it wil not.

dg2010

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Quote from: kokjo on April 17, 2013, 05:17:20 PM

if current system is too bad, go use person-2-person transactions.

Because that's so easy to do right? Wake up. Bitcoin will die a slow death if the only thing left is P2P exchange.

antimattercrusader

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We need a wide array of exchanges, both the decentralized and centralized.

I am all for down with the banks, but when you think about it, the concept of a bank is not "evil." They perform a service, and what we have now have gotten a bit overzealous lol, but it doesn't have to be that way. If an FDIC insured fiat bank put bitcoin into their mix, that might be an entity we can trust, and for those who don't, the free market will bring them decentralized exchanges too.

Imo.

DoomDumas

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Bitcoin

CaVirtex.com with BMO = very nice, it takes 24 to 48 hours, Deposit or Witdraw...

I've made several transactions, both ways, always fast and effective !

+1 CaVirtex !!!

kiko

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Britcoin was possibly the first bank inflicted casualty, should be in the list.

Rygon

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Quote from: BTC Books on April 17, 2013, 07:24:54 PM

Quote from: Luis_GT on April 17, 2013, 07:22:25 PM

You haven't been here long since you failed to mention tradehill Grin

Indeed. There's a reason why most of the old-timers won't use Dwolla, and never will.

What's the issue with Dwolla? If it's only used as a passthrough from a local bank account to MtGox, there shouldn't be any risk of losing funds. The fee is negligible, the only downside is that it usually takes about a week to funds.

manfred

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Energy is Wealth

Quote from: epetroel on April 18, 2013, 08:48:31 AM

Quote from: EuroTrash on April 17, 2013, 05:15:22 PM

# Bitfloor just got their bank account closed
# Bitcoin-24 got both their German and Polish bank accounts frozen
# CaVirtEx got their Royal Bank account closed, not sure how to fund them right now
# MtGox survives and thrives although the SEPA transfers are crippled by insufficient daily limit of their Polish bank account
# BTC-E rejects many claims of accounts being hacked - I wouldn't trust a Russian exchange run by unknown people anyway sorry.
# BitStamp survives and thrives so far thanks to lax legislation in Slovenia.
# BTCChina - no info at all about these?
# TradeHill - back from the dead - good for companies maybe. 10000$ minimum to get in and trade 1000$ at a time
# CampBX - this seems to be working although with very low daily limits

Did I forget anyone? Also pls correct anything inexact above.

Let's see.. I can think of a few others

ExchangeBitcoins.com - One of the first, closed down in an orderly fashion (can't remember why off hand)
Bitcoinica - Crashed and burned due to multiple hacks (or looted by Zhou)
Bitcoin7 - Disappeared (can't remember if this one was hacked or looted by the owners)
CryptoXChange - probably looted by the owners.
Intersango.com - still technically alive, but pretty much on life support.

Lets not forget Bitmarket.eu 20 000 bitcoins gone

Richy_T

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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

Quote from: NikolaTesla on April 17, 2013, 07:26:44 PM

Exchanges will come and go, that's just part of the evolution of bitcoin. As exchanges close, others will open. We've seen several stories recently of venture capitalists and entrepreneurs starting new bitcoin exchanges and there's even the guy who is creating bitcoin ATM's.

And that's fine except they're taking large quantities of peoples funds with them. If Bitcoin-24 had said "We're being shut down, please check your accounts, you should find a full refund of your deposited balances" it would not be great but it would be OK. People (fortunately, not me) have big money tied up with someone who has not seen fit to issue more than a couple of paragraphs in explanation.

epetroel

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Quote from: EuroTrash on April 17, 2013, 05:15:22 PM

# Bitfloor just got their bank account closed
# Bitcoin-24 got both their German and Polish bank accounts frozen
# CaVirtEx got their Royal Bank account closed, not sure how to fund them right now
# MtGox survives and thrives although the SEPA transfers are crippled by insufficient daily limit of their Polish bank account
# BTC-E rejects many claims of accounts being hacked - I wouldn't trust a Russian exchange run by unknown people anyway sorry.
# BitStamp survives and thrives so far thanks to lax legislation in Slovenia.
# BTCChina - no info at all about these?
# TradeHill - back from the dead - good for companies maybe. 10000$ minimum to get in and trade 1000$ at a time
# CampBX - this seems to be working although with very low daily limits

Did I forget anyone? Also pls correct anything inexact above.

Let's see.. I can think of a few others

ExchangeBitcoins.com - One of the first, closed down in an orderly fashion (can't remember why off hand)
Bitcoinica - Crashed and burned due to multiple hacks (or looted by Zhou)
Bitcoin7 - Disappeared (can't remember if this one was hacked or looted by the owners)
CryptoXChange - probably looted by the owners.
Intersango.com - still technically alive, but pretty much on life support.

Viceroy

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Quote from: solex on April 18, 2013, 04:55:34 AM

We need the London-based exchange Max Kaiser mentioned, and companies like xe.com and oanda.com to take up Bitcoin too.

Come help us create the specifications....
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-next-mt-gox-mtgox-20-179147

solex

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100 satoshis -> ISO code

Quote from: EuroTrash on April 17, 2013, 05:15:22 PM

# Bitfloor just got their bank account closed
# Bitcoin-24 got both their German and Polish bank accounts frozen
# CaVirtEx got their Royal Bank account closed, not sure how to fund them right now
# MtGox survives and thrives although the SEPA transfers are crippled by insufficient daily limit of their Polish bank account
# BTC-E rejects many claims of accounts being hacked - I wouldn't trust a Russian exchange run by unknown people anyway sorry.
# BitStamp survives and thrives so far thanks to lax legislation in Slovenia.
# BTCChina - no info at all about these?
# TradeHill - back from the dead - good for companies maybe. 10000$ minimum to get in and trade 1000$ at a time
# CampBX - this seems to be working although with very low daily limits

Did I forget anyone? Also pls correct anything inexact above.

This, taken all together, is quite serious. A true global currency needs many large exchange services to/from fiat. The manual, ebay, face-to-face and other fallback options are fine for the minor coins, but not good enough for BTC to do anything except limp along. Without Mt Gox they would still be worth $2 each. I hope they keep going as well as they are.

We need the London-based exchange Max Kaiser mentioned, and companies like xe.com and oanda.com to take up Bitcoin too.

Francesco

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Quote from: EuroTrash on April 17, 2013, 05:15:22 PM

# Bitfloor just got their bank account closed
# Bitcoin-24 got both their German and Polish bank accounts frozen
# CaVirtEx got their Royal Bank account closed, not sure how to fund them right now
[...]
# BitStamp survives and thrives so far thanks to lax legislation in Slovenia.
[...]

Maybe it's people blaming the exchanges for their losses?

How exactly does the difference in legislation matters?

(how exactly can I trust it, since my money is in Bitstamp?)

GeoRW

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Trust No One

I mostly use bitcoin.de which is a peer-to-peer exchange, similarly to eBay people sell to each other and bitcoin.de works like a middle man blocking bitcoins while the transaction is ongoing. That's the way forward though you cannot buy/sell huge amounts this way and trade in real time with bots.

EuroTrash

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Quote from: BTC Books on April 17, 2013, 07:24:54 PM

Indeed. There's a reason why most of the old-timers won't use Dwolla, and never will.

Ah well, in the early days I used Paxum. I also had a Dwolla account which I believe I never really used due to the high fees. Not sure now, too many parties have passed since. Last year I deleted my Dwolla account right after reading the TradeHill story. They still occasionally spam my mailbox.

EuroTrash

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Quote from: Luis_GT on April 17, 2013, 07:22:25 PM

You haven't been here long since you failed to mention tradehill Grin

TradeHill huh? I thought they were bankrupt. Googled for them now. I'll update the thread so.

I had a look now. Clearly they are rebranding it into some sort of exclusive club. I qualify for membership yeah. But no thanks because F*CK YOU SNUBS.

I don't see anywhere mention of their fees anyway?

Topic: in early stages of bitcoin era, the war on exchanges has started doing victims - page 2. (Read 6103 times)