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Topic: In the long run, bitcoin will be worth $0. - page 2. (Read 6708 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
I would think it more likely that Bitcoin evolves little by little, instead of being entirely replaced by an alt. coin.
Hopefully.
But some important innovations are architecture dependent and can not be done. It is at this point where Bitcoin is going to be replaced.

Please elaborate; I thought anything can be changed through a hard fork and which ever version has majority support wins out.

So I would think we'll start to see minor hard forks and each time it won't seem that big of a deal, but 10 years later you'll look back and think "holy crap bitcoin has changed a lot"

For example if I though that i had a much better idea for an alt. currency.  I'd say that it would be better for me to make a private road map of how to make bitcoin into my new currency, and make small incremental pull requests over a long time period until i'd managed to change bitcoin into the better currency that i had envisioned; as opposed to trying to start my currency from scratch with zero public support.

Of course you might complain "But my pull requests or forks might get rejected"...well maybe that means that other people don't think that your ideas are better than the status quo, and starting your own alt. currency is only a way to postpone that realization.  Unless of course you think the current devs are holding bitcoin back by rejecting your code, in which case you take your case to the message boards, if there is popular support for your modifications I'm sure the  devs would be persuaded to include the code updates.
Yes very much can be changed with a hard-fork, but only up to a point.

Currently even something very minor from a software architecture standpoint like the block size limit, which is just a variable when it comes down to it generates massive controversy, and as we have seen bugs.
So I don't think that major changes are going to make it through.

The examples I posted above are things which could be much more easily implemented by starting from scratch. It's not entirely impossible to do this with a hard-fork but you also have to see this from the innovators perspective: Why try to convince the Bitcoin core team, and try to work with an old code-base instead of starting a own project, especially since the reward from doing so is so much higher?
In software development it only makes sense to do a new project once the amount of changes exceed a certain amount. This has been done over and over again and I can't see how cryptocurrencies would be any exception.
See Netscape/Firefox/Chrome, Apache/nginx, Gnu/*BSD.
If changes are sufficiently numerous people will create another software and this has nothing to do if it requires a hard-fork or not, it simply makes more sense.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1001
This isn't intended to be another spam thread, this is real analysis.

Eventually the world will adopt a crypto-currency. That's just where technology is headed and where we are evolving. It won't, however, be bitcoin. Bitcoin was a good experiment while it lasted, but through experimenting with it it's shown its weaknesses, weaknesses that other crypto's have already made headway in correcting, just without wide adoption.

Eventually, a new crypto that isn't currently in existence will be developed by a counsel of cryptographers and industry professionals from silicon valley but more importantly will also be directed by the advice of economists, not just computer scientists. This new crypto will be widely endorsed in silicon valley and will take the world by storm, eventually becoming the exclusive currency of most online retailers and will be known as the internet currency (as if the internet were its on country / economy). As surely as I write this, this will happen, and when it does, all other crypto's including bitcoin will become obsolete. Sure, they'll still be collected as vintage items for their sentimental value the way old NES games are still collected. But mining them will be easy enough that they'll have no real value.

one problem with your position is that there is more $$$ and expertise already in BTC development than anywhere else, and it would be hard to buy.organise this at any price.

If any other currency looks too successful, the BTC's will just fork to take that on board. So BTC may evolved to be the best coin, by virtue of its front runner position.



Exactly...suppose Litcoin is becoming very popular most due to the 2.5minute confirmations....so bitcoin just updates their confirmations to 2.5minute or 1minute (and divides the rewards and blocksize accordingly)...boom..litcoin is pointless overnight.
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1023
This isn't intended to be another spam thread, this is real analysis.

Eventually the world will adopt a crypto-currency. That's just where technology is headed and where we are evolving. It won't, however, be bitcoin. Bitcoin was a good experiment while it lasted, but through experimenting with it it's shown its weaknesses, weaknesses that other crypto's have already made headway in correcting, just without wide adoption.

Eventually, a new crypto that isn't currently in existence will be developed by a counsel of cryptographers and industry professionals from silicon valley but more importantly will also be directed by the advice of economists, not just computer scientists. This new crypto will be widely endorsed in silicon valley and will take the world by storm, eventually becoming the exclusive currency of most online retailers and will be known as the internet currency (as if the internet were its on country / economy). As surely as I write this, this will happen, and when it does, all other crypto's including bitcoin will become obsolete. Sure, they'll still be collected as vintage items for their sentimental value the way old NES games are still collected. But mining them will be easy enough that they'll have no real value.

one problem with your position is that there is more $$$ and expertise already in BTC development than anywhere else, and it would be hard to buy.organise this at any price.

If any other currency looks too successful, the BTC's will just fork to take that on board. So BTC may evolved to be the best coin, by virtue of its front runner position.

sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 257
Trust No One
I would think it more likely that Bitcoin evolves little by little, instead of being entirely replaced by an alt. coin.

Or some othr network evolves on top of bitcoin network which will enable faster transactions etc.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1001
I would think it more likely that Bitcoin evolves little by little, instead of being entirely replaced by an alt. coin.
Hopefully.
But some important innovations are architecture dependent and can not be done. It is at this point where Bitcoin is going to be replaced.

Please elaborate; I thought anything can be changed through a hard fork and which ever version has majority support wins out.

So I would think we'll start to see minor hard forks and each time it won't seem that big of a deal, but 10 years later you'll look back and think "holy crap bitcoin has changed a lot"

For example if I though that i had a much better idea for an alt. currency.  I'd say that it would be better for me to make a private road map of how to make bitcoin into my new currency, and make small incremental pull requests over a long time period until i'd managed to change bitcoin into the better currency that i had envisioned; as opposed to trying to start my currency from scratch with zero public support.

Of course you might complain "But my pull requests or forks might get rejected"...well maybe that means that other people don't think that your ideas are better than the status quo, and starting your own alt. currency is only a way to postpone that realization.  Unless of course you think the current devs are holding bitcoin back by rejecting your code, in which case you take your case to the message boards, if there is popular support for your modifications I'm sure the  devs would be persuaded to include the code updates.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Remember, the miners get to keep the transaction fees, so in the future even after all the bitcoins are minted there will still be some reward for miners. But transaction fees are dependent on usage, so if nobody is using bitcoins then mining will have no reward.

Are there any projections out there as far as when transaction fees will make up a greater share of the mining profits than the remaining bitcoins?

Nothing accurate.  It depends on any change to how many transactions will fit into a block - which is an ongoing debate.

Well, we can guess, based on current info. What is the average fee payout right now?
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
Remember, the miners get to keep the transaction fees, so in the future even after all the bitcoins are minted there will still be some reward for miners. But transaction fees are dependent on usage, so if nobody is using bitcoins then mining will have no reward.

Are there any projections out there as far as when transaction fees will make up a greater share of the mining profits than the remaining bitcoins?

Nothing accurate.  It depends on any change to how many transactions will fit into a block - which is an ongoing debate.
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
Remember, the miners get to keep the transaction fees, so in the future even after all the bitcoins are minted there will still be some reward for miners. But transaction fees are dependent on usage, so if nobody is using bitcoins then mining will have no reward.

Are there any projections out there as far as when transaction fees will make up a greater share of the mining profits than the remaining bitcoins?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Betamax was a superior technology than VHS

Really?

Could record your shows longer? No.
Devices were cheaper? No.
Had more shows to watch? No.

Guess the only thing going for it was a few extra lines of resolution... Hmm.

4-6 hour TV recording won that battle with the common user.

Actually, it was porn.

Porn industry standardized on VHS, regular movie industry followed, everybody bought a VHS, nobody wanted two machines, Beta lost.

But, yeah, IIRC, the longer record time was the seller for why porn picked it.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye
Sure, they'll still be collected as vintage items for their sentimental value the way old NES games are still collected. But mining them will be easy enough that they'll have no real value.

How would that be, given that mining becomes more and more difficult over time by design?

less ppl mining = difficulty drops

Maybe I should have qualified that with "and there is a limited supply by design". At this point in the game, I can't foresee us reaching a point where there would be a significant number of coins left over that would be "easy enough" to mine, regardless of the dip in value. With the impending number of people with ASIC hardware, at a relatively small electricity cost, they will be able to mine the vast majority of the remaining bitcoins by 2033. As improvements happen with ASICs, maybe the price comes down on them, or maybe they maintain a premium cost but with increasing hashrates and lower power requirements.  It just seems more likely that there would be a select set of enthusiasts doing the mining for the long term and it wouldn't ever be "inexpensive" for just anyone to jump in and mine a significant number of coins for themselves.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Seeing that we have ASICS up and running, the difficulty is never going to get back down to CPU profitable levels. There are bitcoin enthusiasts who will mine at a loss just to keep the network going. But if bitcoin prices go way down and usage drops, you will be able to pick up a used ASIC for pretty cheap, and so mining could turn out to be cheap after all. The other (IMHO, more probable) extreme is that prices and usage go up, and so mining will continue to be expensive, always trending toward zero profit.

Remember, the miners get to keep the transaction fees, so in the future even after all the bitcoins are minted there will still be some reward for miners. But transaction fees are dependent on usage, so if nobody is using bitcoins then mining will have no reward.
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
Sure, they'll still be collected as vintage items for their sentimental value the way old NES games are still collected. But mining them will be easy enough that they'll have no real value.

How would that be, given that mining becomes more and more difficult over time by design?

less ppl mining = difficulty drops

Maybe I should have qualified that with "and there is a limited supply by design". At this point in the game, I can't foresee us reaching a point where there would be a significant number of coins left over that would be "easy enough" to mine, regardless of the dip in value. With the impending number of people with ASIC hardware, at a relatively small electricity cost, they will be able to mine the vast majority of the remaining bitcoins by 2033. As improvements happen with ASICs, maybe the price comes down on them, or maybe they maintain a premium cost but with increasing hashrates and lower power requirements.  It just seems more likely that there would be a select set of enthusiasts doing the mining for the long term and it wouldn't ever be "inexpensive" for just anyone to jump in and mine a significant number of coins for themselves.  Of course, I could be wrong.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Bitcoin will become obsolete once there is a cryptocurrency which does exhibit the following properties:

  • the possibility for split-second confirmed transactions
  • logarithmic growth of storage space and network bandwidth for transaction data (Bitcoin is linear to exponential)
  • a significant fraction of Network computation consists of useful work

I know the former two can be solved, only the latter one would require some new innovation.

By the time this is even possible bitcoin will be a mainstream currency. At that point there will be no reason to switch over.

too big to fail?
famous last words.

The demand for these innovations will not simply go away. Even in a scenario where Bitcoin were to have absolute majority such a significant innovation will consume it.

The market cap of bitcoin is over a billion dollars and that number will continue to rise. It will be almost impossible for anything to catch up to that unless there is something really special about it. Even then it won't deter most bitcoin users.

That isn't really a coherent chain of arguments.


I would think it more likely that Bitcoin evolves little by little, instead of being entirely replaced by an alt. coin.
Hopefully.
But some important innovations are architecture dependent and can not be done. It is at this point where Bitcoin is going to be replaced.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1001
I would think it more likely that Bitcoin evolves little by little, instead of being entirely replaced by an alt. coin.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Bitcoin will become obsolete once there is a cryptocurrency which does exhibit the following properties:

  • the possibility for split-second confirmed transactions
  • logarithmic growth of storage space and network bandwidth for transaction data (Bitcoin is linear to exponential)
  • a significant fraction of Network computation consists of useful work

I know the former two can be solved, only the latter one would require some new innovation.

By the time this is even possible bitcoin will be a mainstream currency. At that point there will be no reason to switch over.

too big to fail?
famous last words.

The demand for these innovations will not simply go away. Even in a scenario where Bitcoin were to have absolute majority such a significant innovation will consume it.

The market cap of bitcoin is over a billion dollars and that number will continue to rise. It will be almost impossible for anything to catch up to that unless there is something really special about it. Even then it won't deter most bitcoin users.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Finding Satoshi
This isn't intended to be another spam thread, this is real analysis.

Eventually the world will adopt a crypto-currency. That's just where technology is headed and where we are evolving. It won't, however, be bitcoin. Bitcoin was a good experiment while it lasted, but through experimenting with it it's shown its weaknesses, weaknesses that other crypto's have already made headway in correcting, just without wide adoption.

Eventually, a new crypto that isn't currently in existence will be developed by a counsel of cryptographers and industry professionals from silicon valley but more importantly will also be directed by the advice of economists, not just computer scientists. This new crypto will be widely endorsed in silicon valley and will take the world by storm, eventually becoming the exclusive currency of most online retailers and will be known as the internet currency (as if the internet were its on country / economy). As surely as I write this, this will happen, and when it does, all other crypto's including bitcoin will become obsolete. Sure, they'll still be collected as vintage items for their sentimental value the way old NES games are still collected. But mining them will be easy enough that they'll have no real value.

There's nothing "real" about this analysis.

You're assuming that BTC's are the first virtual currency.

They are not.

Any open source program based on the features of Bitcoins will most likely be seen as another clone; no reason to give that clone any time of day due to the existing network effect of Bitcoins.

Any non-open source program will be shunned by those who understand the underlying value of Bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Over time, as competing currencies show their worth, you can gradually acquire the new currencies using your BTC holdings, which by that time, may be worth several thousand US$ each.

That would imply somebody would actually prefer BTC to a superior competitor.
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
Over time, as competing currencies show their worth, you can gradually acquire the new currencies using your BTC holdings, which by that time, may be worth several thousand US$ each.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Bitcoin will become obsolete once there is a cryptocurrency which does exhibit the following properties:

  • the possibility for split-second confirmed transactions
  • logarithmic growth of storage space and network bandwidth for transaction data (Bitcoin is linear to exponential)
  • a significant fraction of Network computation consists of useful work

I know the former two can be solved, only the latter one would require some new innovation.

By the time this is even possible bitcoin will be a mainstream currency. At that point there will be no reason to switch over.

too big to fail?
famous last words.

The demand for these innovations will not simply go away. Even in a scenario where Bitcoin were to have absolute majority such a significant innovation will consume it.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Bitcoin will become obsolete once there is a cryptocurrency which does exhibit the following properties:

  • the possibility for split-second confirmed transactions
  • logarithmic growth of storage space and network bandwidth for transaction data (Bitcoin is linear to exponential)
  • a significant fraction of Network computation consists of useful work

I know the former two can be solved, only the latter one would require some new innovation.

By the time this is even possible bitcoin will be a mainstream currency. At that point there will be no reason to switch over.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Bitcoin will become obsolete once there is a cryptocurrency which does exhibit the following properties:

  • the possibility for split-second confirmed transactions
  • logarithmic growth of storage space and network bandwidth for transaction data (Bitcoin is linear to exponential)
  • a significant fraction of computation consists of useful work

I know the former two can be solved, only the latter one would require some new innovation.
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