Instant Bitcoin - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

SquirrelJulietGarden

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Quote from: pooya87 on January 18, 2024, 08:43:48 AM

It is only easy on paper. When you start thinking about it, you'll start finding problem after problem.
For example when blocks are found "instantly" in your hypothetical blockchain, the whole decentralized network also has to be updated "instantly" which is not possible due to delays. You also have to find a way to solve the problem with competing blocks that are created "instantly" so that you can build the "chain" of blocks sequentially and not end up with a lot of stale blocks every second.
Not to mention that such a blockchain would grow too big and too quickly that makes running a full node impossible in a very short time without relying on a strong server. Which means end of decentralization.

With instant blocks, one after another, reorg will become very big problem.

I don't have problems with Bitcoin blockchain even its block time is 10 minutes if on chain transaction fee won't be too expensive for me. With my small money, I don't want to pay too much of it for transaction fee but it is what's going one with Bitcoin blockchain since 2023.

I hope Bitcoin developers will find technical solution to handle the expensive fee but I want security too so 10 minutes block time does not need to be changed to be smaller.

GreatArkansas

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This is an aged discussion about the scalability of Bitcoin. For me it is possible as we already have a lot of new cryptocurrencies that are extremely fast transactions and cheap transaction fees. But most of the common issues from them is decentralization, which Bitcoin has. Some projects discussion and challenge are the decentralization, you manage to solve the scalability but the decentralization?

franky1

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even instant isnt instant

when verifying and collating transactions even by the block template creator it takes portions of a second.
to then hash a block id is portions of a second
to then broadcast a hashed block to peers is portions of a second

lets just imagine it as 0.1second per portion. and for demo sake its 0.4seconds per block from unconfirmed tx to peer seeing confirmed in block

meaning each full block takes 0.4seconds

now imagine a nefarious miner just hashes EMPTY BLOCKS (a 0.1second task) and then after X blocks he then broadcasts all of his blocks to orphan and replace the genuine chain
now the nefarious miner can control the blockchain at 4x rate to genuine blockchain users

the nefarious user can go back 4 blocks and empty block them faster then the genuine blockchain can create one new filled block

as with exponential numbers

a nefarious miner can go back 12 blocks in less time then genuine users can fill 3 blocks
a nefarious miner can go back 200 blocks in less time then genuine users can fill 50 blocks

wallet4bitcoin

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

I don't want to advertise anything. But isn't it true that if instant version of btc is invented such protocol starts to beat bitcoin?
There is a new protocol that is identical to BTC. PoW, maximum supply cap, halvings. But it is instant. Real-time payments in the first layer. Practically, Bitcoin 2.0. I just don't understand. Am I the only one who sees it?
The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

Whatever claims to be BTC and isn't actually BTC can not be BTC. You see, there are loads of things that goes as rewards to pathfinders, in most cases, those pathfinders don't really give out their entire blueprint, if you get to copy them, you will surely have vulnerabilities.

Bitcoin network is one of the most secure network in the blockchain space and whoever thinks he has a good copy type should thread carefully as he might not be able to withstand the pressure when it comes knocking.

I do not trust whatever BTC 2.0 there is anywhere.

btcuser33

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It seems this coin is long discussed here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-kaspa-kas-cpu-pow-ghostdag-5373286, if only i found it ealier...

Dr.Bitcoin_Strange

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Satoshi is definitely not the one to be designing it, which means it's going to be centralized, and in this world, there is nothing that has ever had an advantage without any disadvantage, not a system under centralized control without having drawbacks.

Although I did not start using Bitcoin back in 2009 or 2010, I cannot really tell the difference in transaction speed between then and now, but I am having the thought that Bitcoin transactions were faster then than now, and now we know that there are a lot of investors, which usually floods the mempool with thousands of transactions to be confirmed.

Orpichukwu

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Quote from: Churchillvv on January 18, 2024, 08:40:14 AM

Even with your smart approach of advertising another altcoin, I know and most of us here know that your surely shilling for some coin that you have refused to mention yet but actually waiting for some to request you to mention the particular coin.

I don't see it that way from here; the OP saw some new coins or a new project proposing some kind of idea that he or she thinks is going to be a better version of bitcoin based on what the developers have listed as the blockchain capabilities, so I don't see it as any form of shilling.

Projects of this nature come time without number to try to make some trend and manipulate the minds of young investors so that they will take advantage of their investments, and at the end of the day, everything that they might have listed on their to-do list will be left half-way, and most of them don't even get the projected start, and some of them don't even achieve a positive result at the end of the day.

bitbollo

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

I don't want to advertise anything. But isn't it true that if instant version of btc is invented such protocol starts to beat bitcoin?
There is a new protocol that is identical to BTC. PoW, maximum supply cap, halvings. But it is instant. Real-time payments in the first layer. Practically, Bitcoin 2.0. I just don't understand. Am I the only one who sees it?
The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

anyone can copy bitcoin but this not means you will obtain the same "bitcoin" that we have nowadays.
Likewise how has been distributed, it's something unique. It's useless try to find this new second standard also because we know very well crypto currencies and it's not anymore a "novelty".
There is LN that is pretty fast and easy to be used. I don't think this is a missing feature in bitcoin

famososMuertos

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Bitcoin Core is open source software, hence there comes the "new" Alts or any other crypto project whose "genesis" is the idea of bitcoin.
On the other hand, the scalability of bitcoin should not only be measured by transaction times, there are solutions already proposed, anyway, the last thing is a solution that is not bitcoin.

I think that with the years that have passed and as a frequent user of bitcoin as it is, solutions have been incorporated and in general what exists does not mean a problem for using bitcoin.

It is not perfect, but it is a matter of understanding what the alternatives are when the transaction has delays and one of them is simply paying the high priority fee, most of the time it will even take a couple of minutes.

TravelMug

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

I don't want to advertise anything. But isn't it true that if instant version of btc is invented such protocol starts to beat bitcoin?
There is a new protocol that is identical to BTC. PoW, maximum supply cap, halvings. But it is instant. Real-time payments in the first layer. Practically, Bitcoin 2.0. I just don't understand. Am I the only one who sees it?
The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

There are protocols that is very fast and you can say it's instant as compare to Bitcoin. But it doesn't mean that they have the consensus or support of the community because as you can see Bitcoin is still the top crypto no matter how many altcoins that we have right now, thousands of them and yet they can't even come close to Bitcoin. Of course, as we have said, it's known already and we see it, but as a prime mover, it's hard to switch from those altcoins and pretending to be the next Bitcoin. If you want then you can convert your Bitcoin->altcoin of your choosing and see how it goes for you as far as investment goes. And Bitcoin is more secure than any other altcoins, just to let you know. So there is also a big risk on altcoins even if you said that they are very fast and Bitcoin transaction is very expensive for now.

The Cryptovator

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Don't think that the idea hadn't come to the developers minds.A few developers also fork bitcoin with advanced features. But ultimately, every coin except Bitcoin is called an altcoin. They won't be Bitcoin at any cost. I also wish to speed up Bitcoin transactions, but security is also a matter here. The Bitcoin blockchain is secured from any other blockchain. You can find some alternative altcoins, but they aren't like Bitcoin security, hence they failed to become popular. The ordinal protocol raised some issues by congested Bitcoin blockchains. I feel this problem will be solved, and everything will be normal very soon. It's just hype and shouldn't last longer.

Stalker22

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 09:34:24 AM

Probably you are right. They claim to process pow block every second. That means that block has 10 confirmations in 10 seconds. And that they currently run test net with a 0.1-second pow block. 1 second for 10 confirmations. Basically instant.
I think they are some PoS fake centralized. Because this is simply impossible. PoW can't be that fast.

If you dont mind my asking, which coin were you looking at? Im happy to dig into their white paper and see if their claims hold any merit or if they are mostly hype. There is so many coins out there now, it is impossible to keep track of them all! But I do try to keep an open mind and give new projects the benefit of the doubt before passing judgement.

Either way, healthy skepticism is wise when companies make big claims that seem too good to be true.

Text

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

I don't want to advertise anything. But isn't it true that if instant version of btc is invented such protocol starts to beat bitcoin?
There is a new protocol that is identical to BTC. PoW, maximum supply cap, halvings. But it is instant. Real-time payments in the first layer. Practically, Bitcoin 2.0. I just don't understand. Am I the only one who sees it?
The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

The concept you’re referring to sounds like the Lightning Network, a second-layer payment protocol that operates on top of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. It provides near-instantaneous transactions between two parties. This protocol allows for lightning-fast blockchain payments without worrying about block confirmation times.

The original Bitcoin protocol emphasizes a decentralized network with no central oversight, cryptographic security, and proof of work while an instant version of Bitcoin could indeed have advantages in terms of transaction speed, it doesn’t necessarily mean it would beat Bitcoin in all aspects or be widely adopted and changes to the Bitcoin protocol require consensus among network participants.

btcuser33

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Probably you are right. They claim to process pow block every second. That means that block has 10 confirmations in 10 seconds. And that they currently run test net with a 0.1-second pow block. 1 second for 10 confirmations. Basically instant.
I think they are some PoS fake centralized. Because this is simply impossible. PoW can't be that fast.

FatFork

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

That's not true at all. There are a number of other cryptocurrencies that claim to be "Bitcoin 2.0" by offering faster transaction speeds. Sure, maybe some of those altcoins can process transactions quicker by cutting corners. But they just dont got the same backbone as the OG Bitcoin. The whole point of crypto is that it's supposed to be immutable, decentralized, and secure. Other coins out there might be sacrificing that decentralized structure - putting too much control in the hands of a few big players. And that kinda misses the spirit of this technology.

Bitcoin's got real resilience because so many folks across the world are invested and supporting the network. It's withstood the test of time and bounced back from crashes again and again. The trust and acceptance thats been built so far can't just be replicated overnight. Slow or not, BTC still has the strongest foundations in my book.

I'm always a bit skeptical when these supposed Bitcoin killers come out spouting fancy buzzwords and big promises. In the end, nothing has truly dethroned the top dog yet. I'd rather stick to the tried and true than jump on some flashy bandwagon.

Helena Yu

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I heard that BSV support to accept the coins without any confirmation, so the receiver can spend or use the coins without need to be confirmed. It's called as zero confirmation and it's not safe since the transaction prone to get double spend attack. It's instant, but not secure, do you think it's better than Bitcoin which not instant and completely secure?

Makus

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Quote from: Fivestar4everMVP on January 18, 2024, 08:39:08 AM

I do not know, and neither do I have any idea of what you are talking about, since Bitcoin came into existence and opened a new financial world known as the crypto currency ecosystem, there have been a lot of altcoin projects that tried to steal bitcoin's glory by claiming to solve one or two problems that hunts bitcoin and it's blockchain, for some, it is speed, and for others, it is high fees.
To also add, there have been different number of forks, where the bitcoin blockchain is split into two, bringing about the birth of a new bitcoin-like coin to rival bitcoin and try to dethrone it, but all this have failed.

And what are we supposed to learn from all this?, we are supposed to by now, know that what ever is created by man is not perfect, bitcoin is not perfect, and neither are any of this altcoins trying to become the new bitcoin perfect.
Bitcoin can't be dethroned, if it was possible to dethrone bitcoin, it would have happened a long time ago in the days of BCH, BSV and so on.

This is accurately correct. No project made by man is perfect, even if other projects have qualities that Bitcoin don't have they are still no match for the accomplishments of Bitcoin. Being the first alone is enough reason to be proud of. In the place of speed and high fee, I believe the lighting network can be of great benefits there, just that it cannot be used for transactions with high figures. Another thing to consider is the overall reputation of the coin. Unlike every other coin, Bitcoin is well addressed and respected by the SEC themselves.

pooya87

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It is only easy on paper. When you start thinking about it, you'll start finding problem after problem.
For example when blocks are found "instantly" in your hypothetical blockchain, the whole decentralized network also has to be updated "instantly" which is not possible due to delays. You also have to find a way to solve the problem with competing blocks that are created "instantly" so that you can build the "chain" of blocks sequentially and not end up with a lot of stale blocks every second.
Not to mention that such a blockchain would grow too big and too quickly that makes running a full node impossible in a very short time without relying on a strong server. Which means end of decentralization.

Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

Speed is not the problem, the spam attacks that clog the network and increase the fee and create a competition over the capped block space and cause "delays" to get your tx confirmed is the problem.

Churchillvv

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Even with your smart approach of advertising another altcoin, I know and most of us here know that your surely shilling for some coin that you have refused to mention yet but actually waiting for some to request you to mention the particular coin.

We all know this strategies but I would love to say take such post to altcoin discussion.

Like the two to three coins mentioned above they both provide speed for payments but aren't safe as Bitcoin, so what do you prefer? Safety or speed? Centralized or decentralized (privacy).

Fivestar4everMVP

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Quote from: btcuser33 on January 18, 2024, 08:14:23 AM

I don't want to advertise anything. But isn't it true that if instant version of btc is invented such protocol starts to beat bitcoin?
There is a new protocol that is identical to BTC. PoW, maximum supply cap, halvings. But it is instant. Real-time payments in the first layer. Practically, Bitcoin 2.0. I just don't understand. Am I the only one who sees it?
The only Btc problem is speed. And it is solved. That btc copy is instant. Because i just don't understand why no one else sees it.

I do not know, and neither do I have any idea of what you are talking about, since Bitcoin came into existence and opened a new financial world known as the crypto currency ecosystem, there have been a lot of altcoin projects that tried to steal bitcoin's glory by claiming to solve one or two problems that hunts bitcoin and it's blockchain, for some, it is speed, and for others, it is high fees.
To also add, there have been different number of forks, where the bitcoin blockchain is split into two, bringing about the birth of a new bitcoin-like coin to rival bitcoin and try to dethrone it, but all this have failed.

And what are we supposed to learn from all this?, we are supposed to by now, know that what ever is created by man is not perfect, bitcoin is not perfect, and neither are any of this altcoins trying to become the new bitcoin perfect.
Bitcoin can't be dethroned, if it was possible to dethrone bitcoin, it would have happened a long time ago in the days of BCH, BSV and so on.

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