Introducing Bitbills! - page 9. | Bitcointalksearch.org

FatherMcGruder

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Quote from: SgtSpike on May 10, 2011, 12:33:47 PM

I still don't think expiration dates are necessary or wanted. I would rather have less currency in circulation, than have my bitcoins randomly expire because I forgot to redeem them by a certain date. I HATE expiration dates on things. If I get a gift card, I want it to be good for as long as I live. Same with gift certificates. Expiration dates are frustrating, obnoxious, and I would never purposefully buy something with them. I'm too forgetful of a person to buy money that expires.

I also hate when gift cards expire, deactivate, or when their value decays to nothing. Redeeming or reactivating a gift card is a pain. You have to either go to the right store to spend it or mail some forms to the Vogons. But, with something like BitBills, you can redeem, and simultaneously void, the notes yourself. All you need is the means to cut them open and a camera.

I expect that we will eventually have multiple printed bitcoin implementations and people will choose the ones they like or not choose any. As we all know, bitcoins work fine unprinted.

jtimon

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1002

Quote from: SgtSpike on May 10, 2011, 12:51:14 PM

Quote from: jtimon on May 10, 2011, 12:48:14 PM

Quote from: llama on May 10, 2011, 11:54:44 AM

I'm confident that Bitbills are presently secure against both tampering and counterfeiting. We will continue to add more security features to future versions.

I see.
I though the hologram that hides the private key was just a sticker.

@SunAvatar
I know total security is impossible, I meant secure enough to trade with it.

I should have read the whole web first.

Indeed. Reading the whole web is definitely the best way to stay on top of... the whole web.

Call me when you're done.

I was so arrogant that I didn't read the part "How does it work?" because (don't ask me why) I thought I already knew it.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: jtimon on May 10, 2011, 12:48:14 PM

Quote from: llama on May 10, 2011, 11:54:44 AM

I'm confident that Bitbills are presently secure against both tampering and counterfeiting. We will continue to add more security features to future versions.

I see.
I though the hologram that hides the private key was just a sticker.

@SunAvatar
I know total security is impossible, I meant secure enough to trade with it.

I should have read the whole web first.

Indeed. Reading the whole web is definitely the best way to stay on top of... the whole web.

Call me when you're done.

jtimon

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1002

Quote from: llama on May 10, 2011, 11:54:44 AM

I'm confident that Bitbills are presently secure against both tampering and counterfeiting. We will continue to add more security features to future versions.

I see.
I though the hologram that hides the private key was just a sticker.

@SunAvatar
I know total security is impossible, I meant secure enough to trade with it.

I should have read the whole web first.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Quote from: kiba on May 10, 2011, 12:34:36 PM

Dunno. Looks to me it's easy to counterfeit bitbills.

Could you explain how you believe you could do so?

kiba

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1020

Dunno. Looks to me it's easy to counterfeit bitbills.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: FatherMcGruder on May 10, 2011, 12:31:12 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on May 10, 2011, 12:19:49 PM

It kills incentive to buy the cards as an easy way to hold bitcoins for the future. I picture it like having a stock certificate. You know you have it, you have proof you have it, there's no risk of digital loss, and you can open it up and redeem it at any time in the future.

Can't we just do that ourselves? Just print out the private key, lock it up, and delete it on your PC.

Expiring notes will help new notes with better security get into circulation. A redeem or exchange by date on the bill itself will fairly keep the holder informed.

Good point.

I still don't think expiration dates are necessary or wanted. I would rather have less currency in circulation, than have my bitcoins randomly expire because I forgot to redeem them by a certain date. I HATE expiration dates on things. If I get a gift card, I want it to be good for as long as I live. Same with gift certificates. Expiration dates are frustrating, obnoxious, and I would never purposefully buy something with them. I'm too forgetful of a person to buy money that expires.

hohead

newbie

Activity: 3

Merit: 0

This is a fantastic idea llama. Great work!

Some Gov't agencies may not like the idea of this service, so please be careful.

Please be sure to maintain your anonymity while online, as you can never be too safe. Use Tor when using this forum, keep your domain name and website hosting out of the US, and pay for your website hosting using anonymous methods.

Keep up the good work!

FatherMcGruder

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Quote from: SgtSpike on May 10, 2011, 12:19:49 PM

It kills incentive to buy the cards as an easy way to hold bitcoins for the future. I picture it like having a stock certificate. You know you have it, you have proof you have it, there's no risk of digital loss, and you can open it up and redeem it at any time in the future.

Can't we just do that ourselves? Just print out the private key, lock it up, and delete it on your PC.

Expiring notes will help new notes with better security get into circulation. A redeem or exchange by date on the bill itself will fairly keep the holder informed.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: FatherMcGruder on May 10, 2011, 12:04:47 PM

Quote from: Alex Beckenham on May 09, 2011, 10:58:46 PM

Well here's a crazy idea that even I wouldn't like... bitbills.com could somehow backup the wallets they put onto the cards.

Put an expiration date on the card, say 10 years into the future.

If the card hasn't been imported by that date, bitbills.com can spend those coins.

What's wrong with that?

It kills incentive to buy the cards as an easy way to hold bitcoins for the future. I picture it like having a stock certificate. You know you have it, you have proof you have it, there's no risk of digital loss, and you can open it up and redeem it at any time in the future.

FatherMcGruder

sr. member

Activity: 322

Merit: 250

Quote from: Alex Beckenham on May 09, 2011, 10:58:46 PM

Well here's a crazy idea that even I wouldn't like... bitbills.com could somehow backup the wallets they put onto the cards.

Put an expiration date on the card, say 10 years into the future.

If the card hasn't been imported by that date, bitbills.com can spend those coins.

What's wrong with that?

llama

member

Activity: 103

Merit: 61

I'm going to address a few points here. These are general topics of discussion, so I'm not going to bother quoting anyone in particular:

Bitbills are intended more for continued offline trading rather than instant redemption. A card that is intended to be redeemed as soon as the buyer gets home would be useful, but that's a different product. I'm looking at possibly making those (probably as a scratch-off card) in the future.

As far as mailing cards out without value, allowing "activation" at POS, etc, I have no plans to do this. The instant a card leaves our hands, we guarantee that it has the stated value on it. It would be devastating if somebody traded something for an unfunded card, not knowing that it was unfunded, only later to realize the card was worthless.

In addition to the design and holograms, we are funding every card from the same address. This provides a layer of security equivalent to the proposed serial (and with the same limitations).

I'm confident that Bitbills are presently secure against both tampering and counterfeiting. We will continue to add more security features to future versions.
I certainly agree with SunAvatar; use common sense practices when trading with Bitbills, just like you would with cash or anything else.

Ian Maxwell

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 101

Quote from: jtimon on May 10, 2011, 11:26:30 AM

Ok, so even if the card must be destroyed in a way that cannot be repaired to extract the private key, the bills can be counterfeited: they're not secure for trading.

Perfect security doesn't exist. You may as well say that Bitcoin isn't secure for trading, because someone could hack into your computer and replace your client with a counterfeit.

These cards are quite secure enough for trading, as long as you aren't foolish enough to accept huge amounts of them from a single untrusted payer without auditing them first. Right now I'd accept payment of ฿20 or so in Bitbills from a stranger without even checking the balance, if they looked right. For large amounts like ฿100, I'd probably redeem a few of the higher denomination cards, but not all of them.

ben-abuya

sr. member

Activity: 323

Merit: 250

They're secure for trading insofar as you trust the holograms, so they're probably at least as secure as regular fiat cash.

BitterTea

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 252

Wouldn't it be pretty obvious that someone put a sticker over the public key code?

jtimon

legendary

Activity: 1372

Merit: 1002

Ok, so even if the card must be destroyed in a way that cannot be repaired to extract the private key, the bills can be counterfeited: they're not secure for trading.
The storing and gift uses are secure and I think you will sell a lot of them.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Yes kiba.

kiba

legendary

Activity: 980

Merit: 1020

I can counterfeit this by printing the public key, no?

Ian Maxwell

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 101

Another idea: If you're going to continue creating small batches at a time, perhaps you should offer them via a second item auction (what eBay calls a "Dutch auction"). Set a minimum bid of face value, of course, or maybe even face value plus cost. It will maximize your profit and get these cards to the people who want them the most, meaning the people most likely to do something interesting with them.

I love the idea of buying a card and using it as a long-term "savings account". In fact, maybe BitBills should offer "savings cards" with no face value at all, for precisely that purpose! (Otherwise there's the small risk that the card will get mixed in with the rest of my money and I'll accidentally spend it for its face value.)

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: genjix on May 10, 2011, 04:58:46 AM

You people forget that the public key is visible. Therefore you cannot invalidate the card because you can look up the bitcoin address on blockexplorer.com to see if it has the funds in that the card claims.

Once someone decides to crack open the card, they'll be the first to spend them.

BitBills should include some kind of serial code / id number which can be used to verify it on their website. That way you can verify that the card actually came from them. Maybe they could sell POS scanners that verify the tokens when swiped.

Problem is, a counterfeit operation could just add the same serial number to a card with the same public key. So they print everything on the exterior the same, but the private key inside is invalid. They could keep the real card and maintain the balance in the account so anyone checking the balance could see that it has a balance, but they can't actually access the balance because the private key inside of the card is fake.

Quote from: jtimon on May 10, 2011, 06:10:16 AM

Very cool, you can even store more of your bitcoins in the bitbill address.
But I think paying directly with them isn't very secure.
Here's an attack:

1) I purchase a bitbill.
2) I put out the stick and scan the private key.
3) I put back the stick
4) I pay with the billbit. When the merchant verifies the bitbill, your server says. "Yes, the 20 btc are still there".
5) I use the private key to extract the bitcoins

Maybe the sticks are so special that make 3 impossible, but I don't think so.
Anyway, It will work great for gift cards and physical storing.
A bitcoin client that imports private keys from IQ-codes would be useful.

The private key can only be accessed by destroying the card. It is literally hidden between layers of plastic. A hologram must be destroyed, and the card has to be cut apart in order to access it. At least, that's how I understand it.

Topic: Introducing Bitbills! - page 9. (Read 32678 times)