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Topic: Introducing the MPEx Rota (Read 5091 times)

full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
June 07, 2013, 05:02:38 PM
#49
Overall the idea that someone controls all the addresses they send BTC to is about as strong as the idea that someone is in cahoots with anyone they ever interact with.

Mpex now being "in cahoots" with their former plaintiff (with whom you previously only "ever interacted" via Rota) proves it's not such a weak idea after all. Tongue
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 07, 2013, 04:51:52 PM
#48
Overall the idea that someone controls all the addresses they send BTC to is about as strong as the idea that someone is in cahoots with anyone they ever interact with.
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
June 07, 2013, 04:15:48 PM
#47
The only reason I became interested in this matter is I recently had some coins stolen from my MtGox account and they are now in this wallet here:

https://blockchain.info/address/19GBbg2dLgXC57mN9hx4PEqyN11PNqqg42

From there I can trace the transactions back (and yes I know it does not really prove anything) to this address:

http://blockchain.info/fb/19stxp

It is the same address that Mr. Wences used to send the "erroneous" 130BTC to Mpex in the ROTA case. And it holds no chump change, usually, either.

And really I'm just grasping at straws here, no need to lecture me on how the real world works....
Feel free to submit a case to Rota, then.

Not sure if serious, but made me laugh either way. Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 340
Merit: 250
GO http://bitcointa.lk !!! My new nick: jurov
June 07, 2013, 04:12:01 PM
#46
The only reason I became interested in this matter is I recently had some coins stolen from my MtGox account and they are now in this wallet here:

https://blockchain.info/address/19GBbg2dLgXC57mN9hx4PEqyN11PNqqg42

From there I can trace the transactions back (and yes I know it does not really prove anything) to this address:

http://blockchain.info/fb/19stxp

It is the same address that Mr. Wences used to send the "erroneous" 130BTC to Mpex in the ROTA case. And it holds no chump change, usually, either.

And really I'm just grasping at straws here, no need to lecture me on how the real world works....
Feel free to submit a case to Rota, then.
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
June 07, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
#45
Sorry about necroing this thread but I've spoken to the OP and he's shown me a photo and said he personally knows the guy in the black overall in the middle of this photo:

http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-stuff-all-good-conspiracy-theories-start-with/

WTF is this about you ask? Well, it looks like the OP is at a dinner party with the enterpreneur Wences Casares.

So in real life, he happens to know this Wences guy, and in ROTA he then allows someone named Wences (of all names!) to be the plaintiff in the first (and what seems like last) BTC trial? LOL?
The trial was long before that dinner took place (full disclosure: I was there, too). And you clearly have much to learn if you really think lawsuits make mortal enemies or something.

Yeah, I figured it might have played out the way you describe - trial first, dinner later. The only reason I became interested in this matter is I recently had some coins stolen from my MtGox account and they are now in this wallet here:

https://blockchain.info/address/19GBbg2dLgXC57mN9hx4PEqyN11PNqqg42

From there I can trace the transactions back (and yes I know it does not really prove anything) to this address:

http://blockchain.info/fb/19stxp

It is the same address that Mr. Wences used to send the "erroneous" 130BTC to Mpex in the ROTA case. And it holds no chump change, usually, either.

And really I'm just grasping at straws here, no need to lecture me on how the real world works....
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
June 07, 2013, 03:26:22 PM
#44
Sorry about necroing this thread but I've spoken to the OP and he's shown me a photo and said he personally knows the guy in the black overall in the middle of this photo:

http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-stuff-all-good-conspiracy-theories-start-with/

WTF is this about you ask? Well, it looks like the OP is at a dinner party with the enterpreneur Wences Casares.

So in real life, he happens to know this Wences guy, and in ROTA he then allows someone named Wences (of all names!) to be the plaintiff in the first (and what seems like last) BTC trial? LOL?
The trial was long before that dinner took place (full disclosure: I was there, too). And you clearly have much to learn if you really think lawsuits make mortal enemies or something.

I think that he was trying to go the other way with this conspiracy theory: Since they are friends, the only reason the case was brought before the Rota was because MP wanted it so, the whole thing was a made up excuse to hold the trial and get publicity for MP's little Rota experiment?
sr. member
Activity: 340
Merit: 250
GO http://bitcointa.lk !!! My new nick: jurov
June 07, 2013, 03:22:56 PM
#43
Sorry about necroing this thread but I've spoken to the OP and he's shown me a photo and said he personally knows the guy in the black overall in the middle of this photo:

http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-stuff-all-good-conspiracy-theories-start-with/

WTF is this about you ask? Well, it looks like the OP is at a dinner party with the enterpreneur Wences Casares.

So in real life, he happens to know this Wences guy, and in ROTA he then allows someone named Wences (of all names!) to be the plaintiff in the first (and what seems like last) BTC trial? LOL?
The trial was long before that dinner took place (full disclosure: I was there, too). And you clearly have much to learn if you really think lawsuits make mortal enemies or something.
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
June 07, 2013, 12:55:51 PM
#42
Sorry about necroing this thread but I've spoken to the OP and he's shown me a photo and said he personally knows the guy in the black overall in the middle of this photo:

http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/the-stuff-all-good-conspiracy-theories-start-with/

WTF is this about you ask? Well, it looks like the OP is at a dinner party with the enterpreneur Wences Casares.

So in real life, he happens to know this Wences guy, and in ROTA he then allows someone named Wences (of all names!) to be the plaintiff in the first (and what seems like last) BTC trial? LOL?

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
January 27, 2013, 04:44:43 AM
#41
In the real world, this problem is mooted by simply having someone with the authority to impose obedience by force, an option that we clearly do not have.
The reason it's so hard to come up with a system for voluntarily resolving disputes is because most of the population is literally brain damaged.

Most people start out in infancy having obedience extracted from them by force and threat instead of mutual negotiation. Those early experiences permanently impair their ability to resolve differences peacefully or have successful voluntary relationships.

This is actually likely true. Cheaper to threaten kids innit.

Look, they are forming an Aristocracy, to rule over the peasants  Roll Eyes

Hallo down there. How goes it?  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
January 26, 2013, 07:45:16 PM
#40
MPOE-PR I'm not really interested in responding to your ad hominem attacks.

Then don't. Fuckwit.

You make strange comments about my future contributions but you don't know anything about me.

Then again, maybe I do. You don't know whether I do or I don't, you'd just like to assume that anyone who'd know would think more of you than I do. What you'd like to assume is not worth money.

So let me simply suggest that if you really think this is the right thing, then don't hide your beliefs deep inside the TOS but instead put your red quoted modification right above your bitcoin deposit address where it cannot be missed by anyone thinking to use your service.  Stand by your ideas and see how many new customers agree with them.

Why don't you quote what it actually says "above the bitcoin deposit address"? Just to show that you're not the sort of idiot who talks out of his ass for lack of a head to talk out of. Hm?

Fuckwit.


When your argument has no sound basis you can always resort to name calling... not sure if it is effective but it sure feels good!
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
January 26, 2013, 07:00:51 PM
#39
Look, they are forming an Aristocracy, to rule over the peasants  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
January 26, 2013, 01:51:39 PM
#38
In the real world, this problem is mooted by simply having someone with the authority to impose obedience by force, an option that we clearly do not have.
The reason it's so hard to come up with a system for voluntarily resolving disputes is because most of the population is literally brain damaged.

Most people start out in infancy having obedience extracted from them by force and threat instead of mutual negotiation. Those early experiences permanently impair their ability to resolve differences peacefully or have successful voluntary relationships.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
January 26, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
#37
MPOE-PR I'm not really interested in responding to your ad hominem attacks.

Then don't. Fuckwit.

You make strange comments about my future contributions but you don't know anything about me.

Then again, maybe I do. You don't know whether I do or I don't, you'd just like to assume that anyone who'd know would think more of you than I do. What you'd like to assume is not worth money.

So let me simply suggest that if you really think this is the right thing, then don't hide your beliefs deep inside the TOS but instead put your red quoted modification right above your bitcoin deposit address where it cannot be missed by anyone thinking to use your service.  Stand by your ideas and see how many new customers agree with them.

Why don't you quote what it actually says "above the bitcoin deposit address"? Just to show that you're not the sort of idiot who talks out of his ass for lack of a head to talk out of. Hm?

Fuckwit.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
January 26, 2013, 12:52:50 PM
#36
greyhawk, there are critical differences.  First, law rests on intention.  Second, there is an implicit contract between MPEX as a service provider and the customer.  So this is not strangers forcing you into an interaction.  Third, contract law rests on mutual exchange of value/benefit because that concept underlies successful capitalist economic theory.  That's why CEOs (who make $ on options) still pay themselves 1 dollar instead of working for free.  So that new clause is probably not enforceable in most jurisdictions because there is no mutual benefit.

What MPEX is doing is more like if your credit card bill is $20.53 and you wire just $20 the company just keeps the $ and still claims you owe them the full $20.53.


MPOE-PR I'm not really interested in responding to your ad hominem attacks.  You make strange comments about my future contributions but you don't know anything about me.

So let me simply suggest that if you really think this is the right thing, then don't hide your beliefs deep inside the TOS but instead put your red quoted modification right above your bitcoin deposit address where it cannot be missed by anyone thinking to use your service.  Stand by your ideas and see how many new customers agree with them.

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
January 26, 2013, 04:43:35 AM
#35
Well, if I ever considered investing with MPEX reading this case has disabused me of the notion.  If someone sends you 130BTC and forgets the bitdust it is morally flawed to just keep it.  Return it or at a very minimum donate it to a charity.  You are taking the route modern banks take whereby they gain the majority of their profits from the charges they levy on the mistakes of their customers.  But you are even worse.  If I send a bank wire to a bad address, it comes back to me eventually.  A situation where the institution's gain is the customer's loss soon sets the institution against its own customers and is a recipe for failure since it violates the basic idea of mutual benefit that underlies contract law and capitalist economic theory.

MP, your precedent and abuse argument is specious.  If the number of mistaken deposits becomes an issue, solve it via a fee that discourages abuse but still loses MPEX money.  Because its your d*mn system and if customers can't follow it then losing a bit of YOUR money encourages you to fix it!

And I frankly can't believe you wasted everybody's time on this stupid case.  If I was a judge I would have charged you a penalty.  A penalty for being forced to do the right thing instead of just doing it yourself.

Practically speaking it's this sort of dumbassery that has cost people like you ("the community", if you wish to hold on to that mistaken notion) any chance of being involved in the process for the future. Which... you know, anyone's guess if it's a loss or not in the end.

My first thought was that sending cookies coded in the amount field was silly, and that mpex should stop that yesterday.  But it does allow full transparency.  Anyone that wants to can look at that address and see exactly how much money has come in.  The value of such transparency is quite considerable, and I understand why mpex would want to keep it

Yeah.

I think the judges made a mistake here.  And I can understand why that mistake would signal the failure of the idea.  Having a good reputation for completing trades in OTC is not the same thing as having a good reputation as a fair judge.  Only by judging cases fairly can you develop that reputation, and who would want to put themselves at risk to provide that experience?

Yeah.

I don't know about stealing* exactly, but I agree that everyone has a duty to return things they know don't belong to them.  The extent of that duty varies a bit, but generally an involuntary bailee is held to a very low standard of duty, sometimes not much more than merely not injuring bystanders while they dispose of it.  In the case of an entity taking deposits, I think that most people would consider the bailment to be at least a tiny bit voluntary, and the duty somewhat higher.  How much higher is open to question.

Except there's no duties in BTC. Nor customs. Nor etc.

But, I don't see any mention of the plaintiff taking any steps at all to rectify his mistake.  Would mpex have returned the money if asked?  We have no idea.  Perhaps the judges saw more evidence than I did, but based purely on the public part of the record, the punishment was not justified.

No, actually, the case was quite agreeably brought before the court, it was more of a "here's a chance for you boys to prove you have some basic understanding of the matters involved" rather than a sort of "omg I KILL HIM".

Perhaps we need a rota of appeals, and a supreme rota.  But I can't see how to get there from here, mostly because it compounds the reputation problem.  In the real world, this problem is mooted by simply having someone with the authority to impose obedience by force, an option that we clearly do not have.

MP has stated the only way forward is for actual law students to take this up as a summer project.

Now why the MP-Jury consisted of a bunch of bleeding hearts instead of people versed in law is another matter entirely and was not only foreseeable but totally MPs own fault for accepting these people in the first place for jury duty.

'Twas either because MP is a blooming idiot who didn't foresee the possibility or else because MP is an evil mastermind who did foresee it but aims to derive whatever unforeseeable profits and benefits from it. I'd guess the former but nobody'd believe me anyway.

But for the record, the sum in question was returned etc. For the future however, the FAQ is quite clear:

Quote
DEPOSIT|{sum}, where the sum is an integer, written in BTC (note that you can not deposit less than 10 BTC). You will be quoted an exact sum, which you must send to the exchange address (1Fx3N5iFPDQxUKhhmDJqCMmi3U8Y7gSncx). Don't round anything, the decimals are there to identify you as the beneficiary. You will be credited the full amount. Incoming Bitcoin that doesn't exactly match a quoted sum will be simply kept, reported as profits and distributed to MPEx shareholders.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1009
January 25, 2013, 09:10:30 PM
#34

I don't know about stealing* exactly, but I agree that everyone has a duty to return things they know don't belong to them. 

Really?

About 30 years ago there was a scam going on for a while in Germany where people just sent stuff to other random people. Stuff that was never ordered. Then they sent an invoice for the random stuff and people rather paid the invoice for stuff they never wanted because sending it back would have been even more expensive, and going to court would have been even more more expensive.

This only changed when the law was amended so when you send out stuff to someone who did not order it, the recipient is allowed to keep it. Period.

Which is essentially exactly what MP is doing. Keeping stuff he never asked for that was sent to him.

Now why the MP-Jury consisted of a bunch of bleeding hearts instead of people versed in law is another matter entirely and was not only foreseeable but totally MPs own fault for accepting these people in the first place for jury duty.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
January 25, 2013, 08:13:30 PM
#33
I'm not going to go read the thread again, but I don't recall any mention of an attempt by the plaintiff to resolve the matter prior to initiating the rota process.

My first thought was that sending cookies coded in the amount field was silly, and that mpex should stop that yesterday.  But it does allow full transparency.  Anyone that wants to can look at that address and see exactly how much money has come in.  The value of such transparency is quite considerable, and I understand why mpex would want to keep it.

I think the judges made a mistake here.  And I can understand why that mistake would signal the failure of the idea.  Having a good reputation for completing trades in OTC is not the same thing as having a good reputation as a fair judge.  Only by judging cases fairly can you develop that reputation, and who would want to put themselves at risk to provide that experience?

The idea of encoding some data in bitdust is great.  But if someone messes it up, you do not get to keep their 2250 bucks.  In my book that's stealing regardless of what your TOS says.

I don't know about stealing* exactly, but I agree that everyone has a duty to return things they know don't belong to them.  The extent of that duty varies a bit, but generally an involuntary bailee is held to a very low standard of duty, sometimes not much more than merely not injuring bystanders while they dispose of it.  In the case of an entity taking deposits, I think that most people would consider the bailment to be at least a tiny bit voluntary, and the duty somewhat higher.  How much higher is open to question.

But, I don't see any mention of the plaintiff taking any steps at all to rectify his mistake.  Would mpex have returned the money if asked?  We have no idea.  Perhaps the judges saw more evidence than I did, but based purely on the public part of the record, the punishment was not justified.

Perhaps we need a rota of appeals, and a supreme rota.  But I can't see how to get there from here, mostly because it compounds the reputation problem.  In the real world, this problem is mooted by simply having someone with the authority to impose obedience by force, an option that we clearly do not have.

* It is clearly unjust, and in most places, illegal.  I may very well have argued in the past for or against attaching the label of "stealing".  That is a matter of philosophy relating to intention, but is not important to my point.  I only make this footnote because I don't want people jumping on my in case I've contradicted any of my old posts.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
January 25, 2013, 07:31:02 PM
#32
I'm not going to go read the thread again, but I don't recall any mention of an attempt by the plaintiff to resolve the matter prior to initiating the rota process.

My first thought was that sending cookies coded in the amount field was silly, and that mpex should stop that yesterday.  But it does allow full transparency.  Anyone that wants to can look at that address and see exactly how much money has come in.  The value of such transparency is quite considerable, and I understand why mpex would want to keep it.

I think the judges made a mistake here.  And I can understand why that mistake would signal the failure of the idea.  Having a good reputation for completing trades in OTC is not the same thing as having a good reputation as a fair judge.  Only by judging cases fairly can you develop that reputation, and who would want to put themselves at risk to provide that experience?

The idea of encoding some data in bitdust is great.  But if someone messes it up, you do not get to keep their 2250 bucks.  In my book that's stealing regardless of what your TOS says.

+1

legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1010
January 25, 2013, 07:23:16 PM
#31
I'm not going to go read the thread again, but I don't recall any mention of an attempt by the plaintiff to resolve the matter prior to initiating the rota process.

My first thought was that sending cookies coded in the amount field was silly, and that mpex should stop that yesterday.  But it does allow full transparency.  Anyone that wants to can look at that address and see exactly how much money has come in.  The value of such transparency is quite considerable, and I understand why mpex would want to keep it.

I think the judges made a mistake here.  And I can understand why that mistake would signal the failure of the idea.  Having a good reputation for completing trades in OTC is not the same thing as having a good reputation as a fair judge.  Only by judging cases fairly can you develop that reputation, and who would want to put themselves at risk to provide that experience?

The idea of encoding some data in bitdust is great.  But if someone messes it up, you do not get to keep their 2250 bucks.  In my book that's stealing regardless of what your TOS says.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025
January 25, 2013, 12:41:43 PM
#30
I'm not going to go read the thread again, but I don't recall any mention of an attempt by the plaintiff to resolve the matter prior to initiating the rota process.

My first thought was that sending cookies coded in the amount field was silly, and that mpex should stop that yesterday.  But it does allow full transparency.  Anyone that wants to can look at that address and see exactly how much money has come in.  The value of such transparency is quite considerable, and I understand why mpex would want to keep it.

I think the judges made a mistake here.  And I can understand why that mistake would signal the failure of the idea.  Having a good reputation for completing trades in OTC is not the same thing as having a good reputation as a fair judge.  Only by judging cases fairly can you develop that reputation, and who would want to put themselves at risk to provide that experience?
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