thanks for the amazing response ! We fill it is an extremely simple approach to extend into an economy, and we are building it.
We are building our first client as one colored bitcoin, to create http://www.twitcoin.org, basically a coin which has initial distribution and "mining" algo based on twitter users data. Open source, github, node js .
Intrested to help ?
Topic: Investigating the need for MasterCoin / Colored Bitcoins - page 2. (Read 10137 times)
I failed to understand about a half of MasterCoin paper, but it seems to be way too complex and it's unlikely to work. dacoinminster is neither a programmer nor a crypto guy, so there is a lot of unimplementable wishful thinking in there.
However, coloring bitcoins is the shit. I really see no downsides, but it's incredibly easy and in can work.
Even if it doesn't catch on, it's definitely worth to implement it as an experiment.
(Well, technically there is a couple of problems: Bitcoin blockchain is hostile towards microtransactions and probably cannot scale to support them on a large scale. But it isn't a fundamental problem, I think.)
Compared to other solutions, it is interesting because it allows one to create new assets with pretty much zero friction. There are no servers to worry about, no security woes, no DDoS attacks. Just color some bitcoins and it works: forever, worldwide, for free, in a form which is highly resistant to censorship and blockades.
Isn't it awesome?
Merged mining really cannot compete with it because it is incredibly hard to create a new asset with it.
OpenTransactions, perhaps, can, but colored bitcoins have numerous advantages. So it would be interesting to see them competing.
Is anybody working on an implementation now?
However, coloring bitcoins is the shit. I really see no downsides, but it's incredibly easy and in can work.
Even if it doesn't catch on, it's definitely worth to implement it as an experiment.
(Well, technically there is a couple of problems: Bitcoin blockchain is hostile towards microtransactions and probably cannot scale to support them on a large scale. But it isn't a fundamental problem, I think.)
Compared to other solutions, it is interesting because it allows one to create new assets with pretty much zero friction. There are no servers to worry about, no security woes, no DDoS attacks. Just color some bitcoins and it works: forever, worldwide, for free, in a form which is highly resistant to censorship and blockades.
Isn't it awesome?
Merged mining really cannot compete with it because it is incredibly hard to create a new asset with it.
OpenTransactions, perhaps, can, but colored bitcoins have numerous advantages. So it would be interesting to see them competing.
Is anybody working on an implementation now?
"I believe that Bitcoin has all the desired properties of an ideal currency. There might be a few competing variations, with minor changes to the coin minting schedule, block confirmation strategy, and so forth ... but we don't really need more than a handful such alternates."
This sentence means u understand the need for several currencies, therefore a solution is needed.
why compete over resources if all these currencies can work together, why keep things fragmented if they can be unified.
in a future of digital currencies (by definition all currencies will become digital as its the progress of analog), in order to keep them digital while exchanging them they will need to be based on the same protocol to keep persistency (transforming bitcoin to usd is very similiar to digital to analog conversions). if that future will include colored bitcoins, you could replicate or convert the value of any analog financial instrument into a colored bitcoin (gold, dollar, oil), and then exchange them in virtual form, without the need to convert back to analog.
Playing santoshdice made me realize how amazing it is to have your money in your wallet and simply for every transaction place your bet and get it back to your account - the equivilant in regular world would be deposit into gaming account (use credit card, move money from credit to bank, bank to gaming company 3 days, make bet, withdraw (again 3 days). Having
From what I understand open transaction is much more than just a crypto currency its an entire system and specification of any type of financial contracts, which make it harder to understand, and harder to implement globally.
What is really needed to change the world is create a killer app, that creates new usage over the web of transferring value from one person to another. The technology is here, bitcoin can provide the crypto currency and twitter the communication way. There are 500M people who know how to twit, why not twit money ? all we need is to find a way to connect the client to tiny bitcoins, and after to think how you can exchange one value for another.
This sentence means u understand the need for several currencies, therefore a solution is needed.
why compete over resources if all these currencies can work together, why keep things fragmented if they can be unified.
in a future of digital currencies (by definition all currencies will become digital as its the progress of analog), in order to keep them digital while exchanging them they will need to be based on the same protocol to keep persistency (transforming bitcoin to usd is very similiar to digital to analog conversions). if that future will include colored bitcoins, you could replicate or convert the value of any analog financial instrument into a colored bitcoin (gold, dollar, oil), and then exchange them in virtual form, without the need to convert back to analog.
Playing santoshdice made me realize how amazing it is to have your money in your wallet and simply for every transaction place your bet and get it back to your account - the equivilant in regular world would be deposit into gaming account (use credit card, move money from credit to bank, bank to gaming company 3 days, make bet, withdraw (again 3 days). Having
From what I understand open transaction is much more than just a crypto currency its an entire system and specification of any type of financial contracts, which make it harder to understand, and harder to implement globally.
What is really needed to change the world is create a killer app, that creates new usage over the web of transferring value from one person to another. The technology is here, bitcoin can provide the crypto currency and twitter the communication way. There are 500M people who know how to twit, why not twit money ? all we need is to find a way to connect the client to tiny bitcoins, and after to think how you can exchange one value for another.
The main reason to use the bitcoin chain is to harness the community of bitcoin, and let it scale towards an economic infrastructure rather than just one currency.
I don't think this is a good enough reason. If there are technical benefits to using OT (and I think there are), then it should be the chosen solution. Bitcoiners might still be early adopters of this new tech.
Currently though, this code does not actually exist.
Also, I trying to peg a currency is fraught with problems, supposedly.
Merged mining is code that already exists, and merged mined chains are plug-and-play compatible with existing software that currently contacts a bitcoin daemon to do transactions, so software already exists which should work fine with almost any merged-mined chain,
Pegging is not the only way to stabilise the value of a currency; using reserves seems to work quite well. It has been well over a year now since various altchains that use the reserves approach were started, and their values seem strikingly stable compared to the volatility of chains whose coins are minted by arbitrary random miners who maybe have no interest in the coins other than that of dumping them for fiat.
Of course it is hard to see the stability if you express values in terms of some highly volatile coin, but take a look for example at the values expressed in CDN and/or the values expressed in NKL, at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html
-MarkM-
Also, I trying to peg a currency is fraught with problems, supposedly.
Merged mining is code that already exists, and merged mined chains are plug-and-play compatible with existing software that currently contacts a bitcoin daemon to do transactions, so software already exists which should work fine with almost any merged-mined chain,
Pegging is not the only way to stabilise the value of a currency; using reserves seems to work quite well. It has been well over a year now since various altchains that use the reserves approach were started, and their values seem strikingly stable compared to the volatility of chains whose coins are minted by arbitrary random miners who maybe have no interest in the coins other than that of dumping them for fiat.
Of course it is hard to see the stability if you express values in terms of some highly volatile coin, but take a look for example at the values expressed in CDN and/or the values expressed in NKL, at http://galaxies.mygamesonline.org/digitalisassets.html
-MarkM-
The main reason to use the bitcoin chain is to harness the community of bitcoin, and let it scale towards an economic infrastructure rather than just one currency.
The Second Bitcoin White paper http://bit.ly/SecondBitcoin (with open comments) is indeed a great comprehensive work on the shortfalls of the bitcoin , I believe that a lot of the concets there are not required for the main problem which is :
"Alternate block chains compete with bitcoins financially, confuse our message to the world, and dilute our efforts. These barriers interfere with the adoption momentum of bitcoin and the adoption momentum of alternate currencies as well, regardless of how well-conceived their
rules may be."
The bitcoin2.X (or possibly bitcoinX http://bit.ly/Bitcoin2) is a much simpler approach :
instead of fixing the value of one currency, lets use the bitcoin infrastructure to create a number of currencies all based on the security of the bitcoin , by simply recognizing a coloring protocol on top of the bitcoin protocol .
I love the Milton Friedman Quote, it conveys exactly what we are saying, why build a currency if you can rebuild the economy ?
http://www.yoniassia.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/yassia
https://twitter.com/yoniassia
The Second Bitcoin White paper http://bit.ly/SecondBitcoin (with open comments) is indeed a great comprehensive work on the shortfalls of the bitcoin , I believe that a lot of the concets there are not required for the main problem which is :
"Alternate block chains compete with bitcoins financially, confuse our message to the world, and dilute our efforts. These barriers interfere with the adoption momentum of bitcoin and the adoption momentum of alternate currencies as well, regardless of how well-conceived their
rules may be."
The bitcoin2.X (or possibly bitcoinX http://bit.ly/Bitcoin2) is a much simpler approach :
instead of fixing the value of one currency, lets use the bitcoin infrastructure to create a number of currencies all based on the security of the bitcoin , by simply recognizing a coloring protocol on top of the bitcoin protocol .
I love the Milton Friedman Quote, it conveys exactly what we are saying, why build a currency if you can rebuild the economy ?
http://www.yoniassia.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/yassia
https://twitter.com/yoniassia
There's no need for a "master block chain", if I'm reading your post right. Just update the existing client to support multiple chains side-by-side in a single running process. This is something that I was going to work on eventually, if for no other reason than to simplify the process of running bitcoin and freicoin side-by-side and sharing patches.
But for most of your needs, Open Transactions fills the bill. A bitcoin-like block chain is only ideal for a small number of use cases that require peer-to-peer distributed services. For most financial applications there is inherent centralization in the problem, making Open Transactions a better, more lightweight solution.
But for most of your needs, Open Transactions fills the bill. A bitcoin-like block chain is only ideal for a small number of use cases that require peer-to-peer distributed services. For most financial applications there is inherent centralization in the problem, making Open Transactions a better, more lightweight solution.
Cons: I do not think that I should be mining GoldCoin if I never use it. I only want to spend resources on Bitcoin.
Pro: I refer you to Milton Friedman, who advocated the use of different currencies in different countries in order to allow free market to set converstion rates on the currencies -- it would represent different development of the countries, and their law system. A Chineese worker gets payed salary in his currency, and american consumer buys chineese exports in dollars. The conversion rates will balance out for everyone to make a good living / spending situation. Mind you, Friedman developed this idea, before an electronic "gold" like Bitcoin existed.
Pro: I refer you to Milton Friedman, who advocated the use of different currencies in different countries in order to allow free market to set converstion rates on the currencies -- it would represent different development of the countries, and their law system. A Chineese worker gets payed salary in his currency, and american consumer buys chineese exports in dollars. The conversion rates will balance out for everyone to make a good living / spending situation. Mind you, Friedman developed this idea, before an electronic "gold" like Bitcoin existed.
Is this necessary in order to work around the enmity some miners seem to have toward merged-mine-able chains?
In principle merged mining was intended to accomplish this ability for many new coins to easily be brought on line, in practice merged mining was even used to attack alternative chains instead of to secure them. Though maybe a more aggressive legal-action response to folk who attack networks could eventually ameliorate that, at least moving it from a public action of major pools to a back alley operation fully acknowleged to be as illegal as any other cyber-attack...
-MarkM-
In principle merged mining was intended to accomplish this ability for many new coins to easily be brought on line, in practice merged mining was even used to attack alternative chains instead of to secure them. Though maybe a more aggressive legal-action response to folk who attack networks could eventually ameliorate that, at least moving it from a public action of major pools to a back alley operation fully acknowleged to be as illegal as any other cyber-attack...
-MarkM-
Yeah, spot on. With Merged Mining it's difficult to attract to right crowd to merge mine your chain. I don't think legal action is something we should count on ... not even sure it attacking blockchains constitutes an attack in any legal manner.
Is this necessary in order to work around the enmity some miners seem to have toward merged-mine-able chains?
In principle merged mining was intended to accomplish this ability for many new coins to easily be brought on line, in practice merged mining was even used to attack alternative chains instead of to secure them. Though maybe a more aggressive legal-action response to folk who attack networks could eventually ameliorate that, at least moving it from a public action of major pools to a back alley operation fully acknowleged to be as illegal as any other cyber-attack...
-MarkM-
In principle merged mining was intended to accomplish this ability for many new coins to easily be brought on line, in practice merged mining was even used to attack alternative chains instead of to secure them. Though maybe a more aggressive legal-action response to folk who attack networks could eventually ameliorate that, at least moving it from a public action of major pools to a back alley operation fully acknowleged to be as illegal as any other cyber-attack...
-MarkM-
So ... nothing? Or is everybody too busy with Pirate and BTC/USD fluctuations to care about this?
Wow. That didn't take long.
Working on MasterCoin type things...
Man this place lights up when summer is over just like Anons.
Well the hive has ideas, I guess we can find some common ground.
Working on MasterCoin type things...
Man this place lights up when summer is over just like Anons.
Well the hive has ideas, I guess we can find some common ground.
very interesting...this is a good idea in my opinion
I can imagine entire communities and regions having their own coins,
and in a truly anarcho-capitalist scenario, the places you would want
to stay in the longest would have the most valuable coins and all coins
could be traded against each other. it would be beautiful
I can imagine entire communities and regions having their own coins,
and in a truly anarcho-capitalist scenario, the places you would want
to stay in the longest would have the most valuable coins and all coins
could be traded against each other. it would be beautiful
This topic has been discussed before.
MasterCoin is a codename (coined by dacoinminster) for a concept that has been discussed many times here. The basic idea is a new P2P cryptocurrency that allows anyone to easily issue, control and distribute new types of coins.
Example use cases
- Greece might issue "Drachma 2", a new coin that they manage.
- A gold trading company can issue GoldCoin, which they promise is always backed by physical gold (insured by 3rd parties)
- An individual can issue MyCoin, and distribute those to people who he values ... he would then be willing to trade this coin in exchange for his time
- and so forth...
- Other Bitcoin-like coins can be issued on top of this coin, investigating properties like faster confirms, different economic properties, StakeCoin, ...
The idea is that Bitcoin itself has very rigid economic properties, that will never be changed, namely fixed money supply and a specific coin minting schedule. Who says these specific parameters are "the correct ones" for the currency that positions itself as a candidate for being the one global currency?
Alternate cryptocurrencies can be created by forking the Bitcoin client, but this process is damn hard. A group of non-techy friends that want to create a "BeerCoin", local to their group, that symbolizes who owe who a beer, will never fork the Bitcoin client. Beyond the technical difficulty of forking, alt coins often have low hash power, and are prone to various attacks because they don't share Bitcoin's hash power (Merged Mining is not a trivial solution for any new alt coin).
So far I just introduced the topic, but I didn't say that I support it.
My opinion
I remain unconvinced that this concept is needed. I believe that people don't really have a need to deal with a lot of coins, and that the ideal situation, for the human kind, would be to have only one representation of money.
As for some of the use cases above, I don't think that a p2p cryptocurrency is the best solution for them. Open Transactions might fulfill all the requirements without the added complexities of Bitcoin, and without being a burden on its blockchain.
I believe that Bitcoin has all the desired properties of an ideal currency. There might be a few competing variations, with minor changes to the coin minting schedule, block confirmation strategy, and so forth ... but we don't really need more than a handful such alternates.
Implementation Notes
Just an aside - I prefer to keep the discussion at the "is there a need for this" level, but I still wanted to reference two possible implementations for this concept as a p2p currency:
- Dacoinminster's proposal of MasterCoin (already linked) - a new blockchain that people can switch into by "destroying an amount of bitcoin" in exchange for obtaining new MasterCoins.
- "Coloring Bitcoins" using a modified client, but without any protocol changes.
Discuss
MasterCoin is a codename (coined by dacoinminster) for a concept that has been discussed many times here. The basic idea is a new P2P cryptocurrency that allows anyone to easily issue, control and distribute new types of coins.
Example use cases
- Greece might issue "Drachma 2", a new coin that they manage.
- A gold trading company can issue GoldCoin, which they promise is always backed by physical gold (insured by 3rd parties)
- An individual can issue MyCoin, and distribute those to people who he values ... he would then be willing to trade this coin in exchange for his time
- and so forth...
- Other Bitcoin-like coins can be issued on top of this coin, investigating properties like faster confirms, different economic properties, StakeCoin, ...
The idea is that Bitcoin itself has very rigid economic properties, that will never be changed, namely fixed money supply and a specific coin minting schedule. Who says these specific parameters are "the correct ones" for the currency that positions itself as a candidate for being the one global currency?
Alternate cryptocurrencies can be created by forking the Bitcoin client, but this process is damn hard. A group of non-techy friends that want to create a "BeerCoin", local to their group, that symbolizes who owe who a beer, will never fork the Bitcoin client. Beyond the technical difficulty of forking, alt coins often have low hash power, and are prone to various attacks because they don't share Bitcoin's hash power (Merged Mining is not a trivial solution for any new alt coin).
So far I just introduced the topic, but I didn't say that I support it.
My opinion
I remain unconvinced that this concept is needed. I believe that people don't really have a need to deal with a lot of coins, and that the ideal situation, for the human kind, would be to have only one representation of money.
As for some of the use cases above, I don't think that a p2p cryptocurrency is the best solution for them. Open Transactions might fulfill all the requirements without the added complexities of Bitcoin, and without being a burden on its blockchain.
I believe that Bitcoin has all the desired properties of an ideal currency. There might be a few competing variations, with minor changes to the coin minting schedule, block confirmation strategy, and so forth ... but we don't really need more than a handful such alternates.
Implementation Notes
Just an aside - I prefer to keep the discussion at the "is there a need for this" level, but I still wanted to reference two possible implementations for this concept as a p2p currency:
- Dacoinminster's proposal of MasterCoin (already linked) - a new blockchain that people can switch into by "destroying an amount of bitcoin" in exchange for obtaining new MasterCoins.
- "Coloring Bitcoins" using a modified client, but without any protocol changes.
Discuss
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