Investing in btc casinos - page 7. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Don Pedro Dinero

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Quote from: Pattart on November 23, 2017, 06:38:57 PM

Quote from: jak3 on November 23, 2017, 02:51:05 PM

I do not think that in current market situation the gambling investment will be a good idea, you can put that money and trading that will give much more solid Returns. I have also invested in a site called bitconnect you can try that too it pays 1% daily and it pays up to 10 months after that you will get your invested amount back. No offence but I see gambling as a game of fun where we put some money just for fun not for earning.

but you know that not everyone understands and knows the strategy to make a profit from trading right ?
and beside that everyone's passion is different and maybe some users prefer to invest in gambling that more fun than to do trading that is a complicated and need a mature calculation, and after all invest on gambling sites is also quite profitable

And the main difference is that in trading you have to be active studying the market, buying and selling whereas when you invest in a btc casino you just put the money there and wait. In other words, it is a passive (btc casinos) vs. an active (trading) investment.

I see much easier and more profitable in the long-term to invest in bitcoin casinos, as long as you choose well where you invest.

thinkdifferent

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Well I think investing in bitcoin casino's are as good as investing in trading sites.

You mean trading?

Casino investments are more risky than trading because if anyone wins big amount then you may lose a lot of money in casino investments.

Pattart

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Quote from: jak3 on November 23, 2017, 02:51:05 PM

I do not think that in current market situation the gambling investment will be a good idea, you can put that money and trading that will give much more solid Returns. I have also invested in a site called bitconnect you can try that too it pays 1% daily and it pays up to 10 months after that you will get your invested amount back. No offence but I see gambling as a game of fun where we put some money just for fun not for earning.

but you know that not everyone understands and knows the strategy to make a profit from trading right ?
and beside that everyone's passion is different and maybe some users prefer to invest in gambling that more fun than to do trading that is a complicated and need a mature calculation, and after all invest on gambling sites is also quite profitable

iluvbitcoins

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Quote from: jak3 on November 23, 2017, 02:51:05 PM

I do not think that in current market situation the gambling investment will be a good idea, you can put that money and trading that will give much more solid Returns. I have also invested in a site called bitconnect you can try that too it pays 1% daily and it pays up to 10 months after that you will get your invested amount back. No offence but I see gambling as a game of fun where we put some money just for fun not for earning.

1% a day seems like hyip (gambling) to me.

Quote from: adaseb on November 23, 2017, 02:10:29 PM

Quote from: Samarkand on November 23, 2017, 04:27:27 AM

Quote from: adaseb on November 20, 2017, 01:53:21 PM

...

Don't use the wallets default set fee, that fee is usually like 300-400 Sats/byte and its a waste of money.

I agree with you that the wallet default fees are unnecessary high. However, you could also
argue that every mBTC that you pay in transaction fees is contributing to the security
of the network by incentivizing the miners.

I of course concede that people are not paying unnecessary high transaction fees for this reason and
probably are just impatient (to wait for a longer time for their transaction to confirm), are using
wallets with bad standard settings or simply have no idea how transaction fees work with Bitcoin.

This is not true. Have you taken a look at the daily miners revenue? Its a record highs right now. Basically 144 blocks a day at least with 12.5 BTC as block reward equals over $14,400,000 daily.

So whether people use high or low fees shouldn't matter. The high fees is actually hurting the coin in more ways because people simply make less transactions and combine their transactions rather that making transactions everyday.

I know the Bitcoin Cash dilema starts alot of bad publicity for some people but we really need a fast and cheap blockchain. It will either be LTC, ETH or BCASH.

Those would be short-term solutions, I don't think LTC,ETH or BCASH can scale that good.
What about PoS?
I'm not that well informed but DASH seems like something that could work.

Quote from: Samarkand on November 23, 2017, 02:21:58 PM

Quote from: adaseb on November 23, 2017, 02:10:29 PM

...

This is not true. Have you taken a look at the daily miners revenue? Its a record highs right now. Basically 144 blocks a day at least with 12.5 BTC as block reward equals over $14,400,000 daily.

So whether people use high or low fees shouldn't matter. The high fees is actually hurting the coin in more ways because people simply make less transactions and combine their transactions rather that making transactions everyday.

I know the Bitcoin Cash dilema starts alot of bad publicity for some people but we really need a fast and cheap blockchain. It will either be LTC, ETH or BCASH.

You have to take into account the time in the future when the block reward will be negligible and we will need a competitive fee market.
Also people are clearly willing to pay high fees in order to make BTC transactions. The mempool is basically a self-regulating queuing system.

I highly doubt that any of the altcoins you mention will gain any real traction whatsoever. Litecoin has been around for 6 years and is mainly
used as a testnet/playground for new technological improvements.

They will pay, but it's an economy thing
If you set 50% taxes and people sell shit, you're not going to say people want to pay taxes
They don't
Things happen, just 50% less things.
Same with transaction fees as costs of purchasing cheap products grows because of high fees people avoid purchasing them.

jak3

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I do not think that in current market situation the gambling investment will be a good idea, you can put that money and trading that will give much more solid Returns. I have also invested in a site called bitconnect you can try that too it pays 1% daily and it pays up to 10 months after that you will get your invested amount back. No offence but I see gambling as a game of fun where we put some money just for fun not for earning.

Samarkand

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Activity: 658

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Quote from: adaseb on November 23, 2017, 02:10:29 PM

...

This is not true. Have you taken a look at the daily miners revenue? Its a record highs right now. Basically 144 blocks a day at least with 12.5 BTC as block reward equals over $14,400,000 daily.

So whether people use high or low fees shouldn't matter. The high fees is actually hurting the coin in more ways because people simply make less transactions and combine their transactions rather that making transactions everyday.

I know the Bitcoin Cash dilema starts alot of bad publicity for some people but we really need a fast and cheap blockchain. It will either be LTC, ETH or BCASH.

You have to take into account the time in the future when the block reward will be negligible and we will need a competitive fee market.
Also people are clearly willing to pay high fees in order to make BTC transactions. The mempool is basically a self-regulating queuing system.

I highly doubt that any of the altcoins you mention will gain any real traction whatsoever. Litecoin has been around for 6 years and is mainly
used as a testnet/playground for new technological improvements.

adaseb

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Quote from: Samarkand on November 23, 2017, 04:27:27 AM

Quote from: adaseb on November 20, 2017, 01:53:21 PM

...

Don't use the wallets default set fee, that fee is usually like 300-400 Sats/byte and its a waste of money.

I agree with you that the wallet default fees are unnecessary high. However, you could also
argue that every mBTC that you pay in transaction fees is contributing to the security
of the network by incentivizing the miners.

I of course concede that people are not paying unnecessary high transaction fees for this reason and
probably are just impatient (to wait for a longer time for their transaction to confirm), are using
wallets with bad standard settings or simply have no idea how transaction fees work with Bitcoin.

This is not true. Have you taken a look at the daily miners revenue? Its a record highs right now. Basically 144 blocks a day at least with 12.5 BTC as block reward equals over $14,400,000 daily.

So whether people use high or low fees shouldn't matter. The high fees is actually hurting the coin in more ways because people simply make less transactions and combine their transactions rather that making transactions everyday.

I know the Bitcoin Cash dilema starts alot of bad publicity for some people but we really need a fast and cheap blockchain. It will either be LTC, ETH or BCASH.

Samarkand

sr. member

Activity: 658

Merit: 282

Quote from: adaseb on November 20, 2017, 01:53:21 PM

...

Don't use the wallets default set fee, that fee is usually like 300-400 Sats/byte and its a waste of money.

I agree with you that the wallet default fees are unnecessary high. However, you could also
argue that every mBTC that you pay in transaction fees is contributing to the security
of the network by incentivizing the miners.

I of course concede that people are not paying unnecessary high transaction fees for this reason and
probably are just impatient (to wait for a longer time for their transaction to confirm), are using
wallets with bad standard settings or simply have no idea how transaction fees work with Bitcoin.

8Habits

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Quote from: michkima on November 21, 2017, 01:48:46 AM

Quote from: BTCevo on November 21, 2017, 12:19:14 AM

Quote from: MinerHQ on November 18, 2017, 07:09:16 PM

Quote from: BTCevo on November 18, 2017, 09:55:01 AM

Quote from: MinerHQ on November 17, 2017, 07:14:17 PM

Quote from: JasonXG on November 17, 2017, 06:25:01 PM

Casino investments are really nice because you can use leverage which means you can put 10xleverage and have 0.10btc and have 1btc invested. This is nice because if tou worried about the casino running off with your money they will only run off with 1/10th of it but I doubt that will happen. It also always you to invest the other 0.90btc elsewhere.

When you invest money don't always think the only advantage but also need to consider disadvantages because if you leverage 10x then you also can lose your investments 10X faster. Because if the site loses 10% of their bankroll, then you will lose almost all your investments. It is quite common gambling houses sometimes they will lose 10% of their bankroll if any big whales win few times.

But in the end house will always win, so it does not matter anyway. And 10% of their bankroll is pretty huge amount to lose here. Since big whale will never eat up that huge amount unless there is suddenly big win on slots or may be some lottery game. I ever saw huge bet on betking only and that is the biggest bet ever but still house is on profit too so it is pretty good profit on gambling investment

Why do you think that only one person can win big amount to lose 10% of site bankroll?

In case if few lucky guys win huge amount then surely casinos can lose 10% of their bankrolls and if that happens and if you have leveraged 10 times then you can lose all your bankroll. Just consider moneypot bankroll they lost so much money. In gambling, anything can happen and it is our responsibility play safe.

First because 10% of site bankroll is big amount of money due to the current price of btc. Let assume they have 1k-2k of btc 10% is around 100-200btc per day that they lose so I think most of them will stop before they busted everything there. Second thing, mostly there is only 1-2 big whale player, I seldom see there is few of big whale playing together in a night on any sites.

I can say when you used 10x leverage then you should consider to maintain your balance every time so whenever it losing much you should withdraw your money. It is pretty common thing to do I guess so I still believe that gambling investment is really profitable thing to do unless they are scamming us

Losses are common in gambling site investments, it happens that a few players hit good numbers and profit big time. But when you panic and just withdraw everything and leave, then you will not get the chance to get back your losses from the gambling site. Since, not everyday there would be a lucky gambler that would drain the house's bankroll, there are more chances that a big loss will occur from those whales and even, highly likely, those people that got lucky the other day and they just return their winnings back to the house/

In short, greed may cause a lot of disappointment with gambling. If you are already winning in games that are based on pure luck, better not be too greedy and continue to play because you will really have more chances of losing all your banckroll if you wont stop.

michkima

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Quote from: BTCevo on November 21, 2017, 12:19:14 AM

Quote from: MinerHQ on November 18, 2017, 07:09:16 PM

Quote from: BTCevo on November 18, 2017, 09:55:01 AM

Quote from: MinerHQ on November 17, 2017, 07:14:17 PM

Quote from: JasonXG on November 17, 2017, 06:25:01 PM

Casino investments are really nice because you can use leverage which means you can put 10xleverage and have 0.10btc and have 1btc invested. This is nice because if tou worried about the casino running off with your money they will only run off with 1/10th of it but I doubt that will happen. It also always you to invest the other 0.90btc elsewhere.

When you invest money don't always think the only advantage but also need to consider disadvantages because if you leverage 10x then you also can lose your investments 10X faster. Because if the site loses 10% of their bankroll, then you will lose almost all your investments. It is quite common gambling houses sometimes they will lose 10% of their bankroll if any big whales win few times.

But in the end house will always win, so it does not matter anyway. And 10% of their bankroll is pretty huge amount to lose here. Since big whale will never eat up that huge amount unless there is suddenly big win on slots or may be some lottery game. I ever saw huge bet on betking only and that is the biggest bet ever but still house is on profit too so it is pretty good profit on gambling investment

Why do you think that only one person can win big amount to lose 10% of site bankroll?

In case if few lucky guys win huge amount then surely casinos can lose 10% of their bankrolls and if that happens and if you have leveraged 10 times then you can lose all your bankroll. Just consider moneypot bankroll they lost so much money. In gambling, anything can happen and it is our responsibility play safe.

First because 10% of site bankroll is big amount of money due to the current price of btc. Let assume they have 1k-2k of btc 10% is around 100-200btc per day that they lose so I think most of them will stop before they busted everything there. Second thing, mostly there is only 1-2 big whale player, I seldom see there is few of big whale playing together in a night on any sites.

I can say when you used 10x leverage then you should consider to maintain your balance every time so whenever it losing much you should withdraw your money. It is pretty common thing to do I guess so I still believe that gambling investment is really profitable thing to do unless they are scamming us

Losses are common in gambling site investments, it happens that a few players hit good numbers and profit big time. But when you panic and just withdraw everything and leave, then you will not get the chance to get back your losses from the gambling site. Since, not everyday there would be a lucky gambler that would drain the house's bankroll, there are more chances that a big loss will occur from those whales and even, highly likely, those people that got lucky the other day and they just return their winnings back to the house/

BTCevo

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Quote from: MinerHQ on November 18, 2017, 07:09:16 PM

Quote from: BTCevo on November 18, 2017, 09:55:01 AM

Quote from: MinerHQ on November 17, 2017, 07:14:17 PM

Quote from: JasonXG on November 17, 2017, 06:25:01 PM

Casino investments are really nice because you can use leverage which means you can put 10xleverage and have 0.10btc and have 1btc invested. This is nice because if tou worried about the casino running off with your money they will only run off with 1/10th of it but I doubt that will happen. It also always you to invest the other 0.90btc elsewhere.

When you invest money don't always think the only advantage but also need to consider disadvantages because if you leverage 10x then you also can lose your investments 10X faster. Because if the site loses 10% of their bankroll, then you will lose almost all your investments. It is quite common gambling houses sometimes they will lose 10% of their bankroll if any big whales win few times.

But in the end house will always win, so it does not matter anyway. And 10% of their bankroll is pretty huge amount to lose here. Since big whale will never eat up that huge amount unless there is suddenly big win on slots or may be some lottery game. I ever saw huge bet on betking only and that is the biggest bet ever but still house is on profit too so it is pretty good profit on gambling investment

Why do you think that only one person can win big amount to lose 10% of site bankroll?

In case if few lucky guys win huge amount then surely casinos can lose 10% of their bankrolls and if that happens and if you have leveraged 10 times then you can lose all your bankroll. Just consider moneypot bankroll they lost so much money. In gambling, anything can happen and it is our responsibility play safe.

First because 10% of site bankroll is big amount of money due to the current price of btc. Let assume they have 1k-2k of btc 10% is around 100-200btc per day that they lose so I think most of them will stop before they busted everything there. Second thing, mostly there is only 1-2 big whale player, I seldom see there is few of big whale playing together in a night on any sites.

I can say when you used 10x leverage then you should consider to maintain your balance every time so whenever it losing much you should withdraw your money. It is pretty common thing to do I guess so I still believe that gambling investment is really profitable thing to do unless they are scamming us

MinerHQ

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Quote from: stevrev on November 20, 2017, 08:01:50 AM

how much would I have to invest to see a decent return?

If your new to investing in casino bankrolls then start with a small amount first and monitor your invests performance and if you find it is suitable for you then slowly increase your investments over the time.

Quote from: stevrev on November 20, 2017, 08:01:50 AM

how long would I have to stay invested?

No one can answer you exactly how long it takes to grow your investments because it all depends on how much site can attract traffic to their site and also if anyone wins big amount then as investors we may lose money as well. But if you invest in a good casino then, in the long run, you will surely make a decent profit.

Bitfort

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invest trade and gamble wisely

Quote from: JasonXG on November 20, 2017, 07:42:51 PM

Quote from: MinerHQ on November 17, 2017, 07:14:17 PM

Quote from: JasonXG on November 17, 2017, 06:25:01 PM

Casino investments are really nice because you can use leverage which means you can put 10xleverage and have 0.10btc and have 1btc invested. This is nice because if tou worried about the casino running off with your money they will only run off with 1/10th of it but I doubt that will happen. It also always you to invest the other 0.90btc elsewhere.

When you invest money don't always think the only advantage but also need to consider disadvantages because if you leverage 10x then you also can lose your investments 10X faster. Because if the site loses 10% of their bankroll, then you will lose almost all your investments. It is quite common gambling houses sometimes they will lose 10% of their bankroll if any big whales win few times.

Yes i realize this but if you had 1btc in you would lose 0.1btc anyway. ...

Yes, but your investment would continue being active (and eventually can recover). With the 10x leveraged 0.1btc the whole investment is simply over.

JasonXG

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Quote from: MinerHQ on November 17, 2017, 07:14:17 PM

Quote from: JasonXG on November 17, 2017, 06:25:01 PM

Casino investments are really nice because you can use leverage which means you can put 10xleverage and have 0.10btc and have 1btc invested. This is nice because if tou worried about the casino running off with your money they will only run off with 1/10th of it but I doubt that will happen. It also always you to invest the other 0.90btc elsewhere.

When you invest money don't always think the only advantage but also need to consider disadvantages because if you leverage 10x then you also can lose your investments 10X faster. Because if the site loses 10% of their bankroll, then you will lose almost all your investments. It is quite common gambling houses sometimes they will lose 10% of their bankroll if any big whales win few times.

Yes i realize this but if you had 1btc in you would lose 0.1btc anyway. Thats why I say risk 0.1btc at a time on 10x. But yes you have a point and it is important to remember that.

p3ppymon

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Quote from: adaseb on November 20, 2017, 01:53:21 PM

Quote from: p3ppymon on November 20, 2017, 01:26:25 PM

Quote from: Caladonian on November 14, 2017, 11:27:56 PM

Quote from: Ziskinberg on November 14, 2017, 06:35:16 PM

Quote from: p3ppymon on November 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PM

I have invested in a casino site quite a long time ago with some decent return. Would you advise me to do invest again?
If so, what would you recommend: invest in a single casino the whole amount or diversify the investment in different sites?

I would recommend that you diversify your investment, do not just trust your money in one casino as there are a lot of casinos out there who offers the same investment program, the point here is you can minimize the risk while you can sill receive the same profit because in general casino's are profitable especially those who are existing for a long period of time already.

Even small profits but from those bigger casino you can get some breathing with your money, just research each of them and never ask for more just like treating your investment as a passive income as those casinos have its own condition and have its terms when to cash it out.

So I have did some research and concluded that I cannot afford to invest in any casino with BTC as I don't have enough to spare. Transaction costs are incredibly high (wallet to casino, casino cash out). Hence I will wait a bit.
Nevertheless, I have seen some site accepting altcoins and I will be more prone to invest in them (even though btc remains the preferred currency to gamble with).
I will share details of my investments soon.

Transaction costs aren't that bad. If you got a transaction with 1 input and 1 output it should be around 200 Bytes which is around $0.15 or so if you sent it with a fee of 10 sats/byte.

Looking at

https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#1w

This transaction would take a while but it would eventually confirm. I don't know why everybody is complaining about transaction fees.

Don't use the wallets default set fee, that fee is usually like 300-400 Sats/byte and its a waste of money.

Thanks for sharing the link. Very useful indeed.
Do I understand correctly that pretty much every tx with fees of 5-10 sat/byte or more is eventually going through? And the 0-5 sat/byte are not processed easily and keep increasing in number?

adaseb

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Quote from: p3ppymon on November 20, 2017, 01:26:25 PM

Quote from: Caladonian on November 14, 2017, 11:27:56 PM

Quote from: Ziskinberg on November 14, 2017, 06:35:16 PM

Quote from: p3ppymon on November 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PM

I have invested in a casino site quite a long time ago with some decent return. Would you advise me to do invest again?
If so, what would you recommend: invest in a single casino the whole amount or diversify the investment in different sites?

I would recommend that you diversify your investment, do not just trust your money in one casino as there are a lot of casinos out there who offers the same investment program, the point here is you can minimize the risk while you can sill receive the same profit because in general casino's are profitable especially those who are existing for a long period of time already.

Even small profits but from those bigger casino you can get some breathing with your money, just research each of them and never ask for more just like treating your investment as a passive income as those casinos have its own condition and have its terms when to cash it out.

So I have did some research and concluded that I cannot afford to invest in any casino with BTC as I don't have enough to spare. Transaction costs are incredibly high (wallet to casino, casino cash out). Hence I will wait a bit.
Nevertheless, I have seen some site accepting altcoins and I will be more prone to invest in them (even though btc remains the preferred currency to gamble with).
I will share details of my investments soon.

Transaction costs aren't that bad. If you got a transaction with 1 input and 1 output it should be around 200 Bytes which is around $0.15 or so if you sent it with a fee of 10 sats/byte.

Looking at

https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#1w

This transaction would take a while but it would eventually confirm. I don't know why everybody is complaining about transaction fees.

Don't use the wallets default set fee, that fee is usually like 300-400 Sats/byte and its a waste of money.

p3ppymon

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Activity: 700

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Quote from: Caladonian on November 14, 2017, 11:27:56 PM

Quote from: Ziskinberg on November 14, 2017, 06:35:16 PM

Quote from: p3ppymon on November 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PM

I have invested in a casino site quite a long time ago with some decent return. Would you advise me to do invest again?
If so, what would you recommend: invest in a single casino the whole amount or diversify the investment in different sites?

I would recommend that you diversify your investment, do not just trust your money in one casino as there are a lot of casinos out there who offers the same investment program, the point here is you can minimize the risk while you can sill receive the same profit because in general casino's are profitable especially those who are existing for a long period of time already.

Even small profits but from those bigger casino you can get some breathing with your money, just research each of them and never ask for more just like treating your investment as a passive income as those casinos have its own condition and have its terms when to cash it out.

So I have did some research and concluded that I cannot afford to invest in any casino with BTC as I don't have enough to spare. Transaction costs are incredibly high (wallet to casino, casino cash out). Hence I will wait a bit.
Nevertheless, I have seen some site accepting altcoins and I will be more prone to invest in them (even though btc remains the preferred currency to gamble with).
I will share details of my investments soon.

Lavander

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Activity: 369

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Quote from: debuni on November 20, 2017, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: lite on November 20, 2017, 08:44:08 AM

Quote from: stevrev on November 20, 2017, 08:01:50 AM

I like to gamble, but I'm getting tired of losing, so I'm thinking about shifting my strategy towards investing instead. has anyone here made much money from investing in a dice site's bankroll? how much would I have to invest to see a decent return? and how long would I have to stay invested?

If you want to invest in casino's bankroll you'd have to be invested for long term, previously i had made some profit investing in betking's bankroll, trying again now. atm i'm in loss, we'll see what happens in few months.

follow this guy(https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@btcmillionaire/bitcoin-casino-investments-12-week-11-of-52) or see his stats and invest only in sites which are giving positive result.

I'm also in loss at the moment. Stared with 3BTC in 3 sites four four/two months ago. I know it's for the long term but I'm finding it annoying.

Trading is much more profitable with a slightly greater risk. But more importantly there - you are in control, you are responsible for all loses and profit.

Sorry guys, but i'm not sure if i understand correct. At the moment you have lost on investment in bankroll - but what is the reason?
Do you suspect that the casino make some tricky tricks with you, or people really win so much?

debuni

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Quote from: lite on November 20, 2017, 08:44:08 AM

Quote from: stevrev on November 20, 2017, 08:01:50 AM

I like to gamble, but I'm getting tired of losing, so I'm thinking about shifting my strategy towards investing instead. has anyone here made much money from investing in a dice site's bankroll? how much would I have to invest to see a decent return? and how long would I have to stay invested?

If you want to invest in casino's bankroll you'd have to be invested for long term, previously i had made some profit investing in betking's bankroll, trying again now. atm i'm in loss, we'll see what happens in few months.

follow this guy(https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@btcmillionaire/bitcoin-casino-investments-12-week-11-of-52) or see his stats and invest only in sites which are giving positive result.

I'm also in loss at the moment. Stared with 3BTC in 3 sites four four/two months ago. I know it's for the long term but I'm finding it annoying.

Trading is much more profitable with a slightly greater risk. But more importantly there - you are in control, you are responsible for all loses and profit.

lite

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Quote from: stevrev on November 20, 2017, 08:01:50 AM

I like to gamble, but I'm getting tired of losing, so I'm thinking about shifting my strategy towards investing instead. has anyone here made much money from investing in a dice site's bankroll? how much would I have to invest to see a decent return? and how long would I have to stay invested?

If you want to invest in casino's bankroll you'd have to be invested for long term, previously i had made some profit investing in betking's bankroll, trying again now. atm i'm in loss, we'll see what happens in few months.

follow this guy(https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@btcmillionaire/bitcoin-casino-investments-12-week-11-of-52) or see his stats and invest only in sites which are giving positive result.

Topic: Investing in btc casinos - page 7. (Read 40405 times)