Topic: Is anyone working with SAFT ICOs? (Read 762 times)

Check isitasecurity.com. They are updating the list continuously.

Good point on buying collector items and art for profit... guess I'd better go get that Hulk #181 instead of investing in another ICO. 

It would be great if there was an openly available set of legal documents for projects, rather than companies charging hundreds of thousands and literally providing no added security for devs and contrubutors.

It doesnt solve the issue. It just addresses some risk involved with presales on non-functional tokens. People can buy collectors items or Art with the expectation of profit. That does not make those securities. Read the whitepaper of the SAFT and my rebuttle herein.

Many people are hoping SAFT will help to solve the issue of regualtions about if a token is a security or not,but to me most of them are security, are investors expecting profit investing into this ICOs or not, the answer is YES, it will be interesting how this goes long term

Thanks; what is your question exactly? I think this exchange is a GREAT Thing. Stocks on the blockchain is a good thing if executed correctly, but I will leave that to the hybrid team of legal and tech experts. Furthermore, tokens that are like securities should go onto the exchange but utility tokens should question whether they have to, unless the actual tokenholders can band together to vote and decide whether to list on the exchange.

The idea shouldnt be to make a utility token into a security. Policy experts must debate the pros and cons and honestly, if they want they can just say "let's not use the howey test and just use something else to regulate tokens as securities"

Thus began the Great SAFT WARS...

There are arguments against SAFT. You either drink the Kool-Aid or you don't (or you seek to profit from the legal fees of the SAFT ). The SAFT fails and likely will fall out of use as more tokens that look like securities (considering given to established and clear cut standards/characteristics) are registering as securities or just do direct private placements if they are security-like. Making utility tokens attached to securities seems to hurts ICOs and buyers more than it helps. The real solution against fraud is not a SAFT, but is a set of decentralized ICO rating agencies, open source code auditing, and other required benchmarks, AS WELL CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS. Let's see you respond to this without using profanity. . I want to thank you, though, for pressure testing the argument against SAFT usage and making it stronger as a result


(A) The SAFT proponents take a leap of logical reasoning with the expectation of profits  prong, which they admit is not even likely to be satisfied. They fail this important prong, assume its met then proceed to the last prong ("efforts of others"), but that's generally not how it works, but for completeness here it goes:
Quoting directly from Cooley's whitepaper: So, without a doubt, that a profit motive is present is insufficient. Still, Forman can teach us more: It stands to reason that the purchaser likely would not have purchased the shares at all if he expected to lose money or merely break even upon resale. After all, what purchaser would buy a home knowing that it would be underwater when he decided to sell? Even if profit was a necessary outcome of the transaction for a prospective purchaser, it would be insufficient to satisfy this prong of Howey. To satisfy this prong, the purchaser’s expectation of profit must predominate
the expectation of using the thing purchased."

A utility token is a utility, profit or no profit Couldn't you actually make the argument that if a token purchaser REALLY REALLY wanted to use the protocol, they would seek to minimize costs for themselves and their business by buying into the pre-sale discount, as shown by their actions (1) they believe in the project and see benefit for themselves and (2) want to make it happen, so they risk it and contribute early on. And you can also argue that those who buy fully developed protocol tokens may actually be more likely to be purchasing for monetary gain because the risk of loss is lower for fully developed blockchain protocol tokens. People who are willing to engage in a presale may be more likely to see the potential of the idea and desire to see it to fruition, hence their willingness to risk it big, on an idea where profit is less likely than it is for an established token. Simply put the SAFT argument about functionality vs prefunctionality and expectation of profits can be a wash. Furthermore, most or many purchase agreements seem to have a "No Speculation" representation made by buyers. So it seems like buyers are in breach from the start if they buy for investment purposes, but courts and regulators do not seem to have addressed this point.

(B) Just because a set of facts might be (slightly) more likely to pass a Howey prong ("efforts of others") of a test, surely this does not mean such facts WILL pass the test. I acknowledge that once up and running, the token may go up in value because of its usage. But then you must concede that a token is only as good as its usage and not its stage of development, so even a fully developed blockchain has no value to tokenholders until the token and blockchain are used. Its really just a timing issue, but one that does not really translate into legal substance. When there is a presale, there is no blockchain or at most not a functioning blockchain and there is no token (sometimes its just the discount coupon code) or a non functioning token, both have no value until usage, so the reliance on the "efforts of others" is mitigated and not really there. you arent getting anything during a presale and even as the developers work you are getting nothing.

I repeat by definition utility only blockchain tokens have no value whatsoever and nor do their blockchains, they only have value because people use them or believe they do. Token holders don't own the blockchain, they own a metrocard, an entry ticket into an amusement park. When you buy the presale and the developers the "others" you are allegedly relying on, nothing is happening in terms of profit. Nothing happens in terms of profit until people create a secondary market and even that does not (according to good law) does not make something a security.

So far we have "expectation of profits"(X) and "efforts of others" (X).


(C) Alternatively, if you think about it, the SAFT does not even truly protect markets, if anything it centralizes markets and benefits the rich first and foremost and can make pumps and dumps more likely than less likely. Think about it this way:
(1) Under the SAFT framework, only AI's (wealthy and institutions can benefit from presales (which offer huge discounts) buying massive amounts and then they are free to sellof and lock in their discount price when they unload to the masses causing mass disruption with one trade. Only they get that privilege. And its actually less likely for market disruption when presales are open to more people on a distributed and decentralized basis (more people holding smaller amounts makes a better ma
(2) Why is a pre-functional token a security? Only because it is slightly more likely to pass the efforts of others prong? That argument is not exactly strong. Sure value of a token can go up as it is used more, but many seem to buy functional tokens for investment purposes only so the risk there is strong as well and should be considered securities.

(D) The SAFT goes WAAYYYYYY farther than even the SEC was willing to in its 21(a) report, which by the way is not an enforcement action and is really guidance more than anything and honestly, didn't add much new information to the ecosystem. The SEC Report basically just confirmed the Howey Test with very very very easy facts. The Howey Test contemplates the examples that look like securities and smell like securities, the SAFT arguments are a real stretch. There is a reason the SEC chose such clear cut facts. In fact the SEC case doesnt really do anything groundbreaking. There have been many cases that essentially say "no matter how creative you are, if it looks and feels like a security, it is, regardless of tech and nomenclatures"

Most pure utility tokens look nothing like the DAO, even with a presale. Cooley is smart as a business: How(ey) can we make money of the ICO craze? How can we monetize it for the big law firm? I heard the legal fees for their ICO services are very very steep.
 



Hyperme.sh I think Duber is being sarcastic when characterizing your thoughtful contribution and rational argument; lazy cussing.

More great insight from Dasani!

Still, what about this --> Biggest ICO Ever? tZERO to Launch Pre-Sale Nov. 15 via SaftLaunch
https://hacked.com/biggest-ico-ever-tzero-to-launch-saft-pre-sale-nov-15/


Overstock CEO and tZERO Chairman Patrick Byrne made the announcement at the annual Money 20/20 conference in Las Vegas. Byrne provided a general description of the tZERO token, and said the first round of funding will be administered as a Simple Agreement for Future Tokens (SAFT) project. New York-based SAFTLaunch.com will handle the pre-sale, which is expected to run from Nov. 15 until Dec. 31.

SAFTLaunch provides a secure and compliant ICO platform, where companies and investors are vetted to ensure maximum quality.

tZERO made headlines last month after it announced plans to work with Argon Group and RenGen to launch a U.S. regulated Alternative Trading System (ATS).  The platform will enable trading of both security tokens and app tokens administered through ICOs as well as SAFTs.

// -- Become a yearly Platinum Member and save 69 USD and get access to our secret group on Workplace. Click here to change your current membership -- //
Byrne first announced his vision for tZERO all the way back in 2014. In Las Vegas, he commented on how quickly the blockchain community has evolved over the past three years.

“While many doubted, the tZERO team worked hard to be at the tip of the spear in creating and launching credible, capable and institutionally scalable blockchain technologies for crypto assets,” he said, according to GlobeNewswire. “Today those efforts are attracting interest from both the crypto community and the largest global institutional funds.”

About tZERO
As a subsidiary of Overstock, tZERO is a distributed ledger platform for capital markets and private exchanges. In addition to launching the world’s first SEC compliant ATS for cryptocurrency assets, tZERO also issued the first private blockchain bond offering, as well as the first public blockchain security.

As CCN reported two weeks ago, tZERO could very well become the biggest token raise yet. Byrne predicts the tZERO token sale could “easily” raise between $200 million and $500 million, breaking the all-time record set by Filecoin.

The argument that pre functional tokens are securities is not strong. Even the authors of the SAFT admit that the second prong is unlikely to be satisfied when there is a utility token pre functional or functional. It's a weak argument. They basically admit that but analyze the third prong as if it's the only piece that matters.

Wow! Hyperme has some great insight!

Do you think SAFT ICO's help as a bridge to equity and stock investors of public companies?

I analysed ICOs and the SAFT project white paper:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.22902804

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The quoted portion is ignorant and incorrect bullshit.

The SAFT white paper clearly explains that the SAFT is a way of avoiding issuing a pre-functional token, which is likely to be classified as a security. The functional token that is ultimately issued must be a non-security.

The SAFT shares are the security, not the token.

Dasani -

This is an awesome reply on the downside risks of SAFT!

We appreciate that, especially at a time when all the news surrounding SAFT tends to pump.

Best!

-duber Partners

The SAFT may be unneeded and very expensive but great for law firm billables.

The SAFT wants to eliminate the utility token argument. Many tokens are NOT securitites and are more like metrocards and software licenses, however the SAFT doesn't care and essentially creates a securities where there is not. As Cooley admits in the whitepaper, the token is often not the security while the SAFT always is. So then why add such a regulatory burden and why limit the amount you can raise and who you can offer to (only Accredited Investors (i.e. high net worth)? (rhetorical question)

Furthermore, what protections do the SAFT provide once the tokens are delivered? Are the tokens now treated as restricted securities, meaning that you must hold your tokens for a year or more before selling them? That seems like a major drawback for anyone buying tokens for short to medium term investing.

SAFT may also create more problems than it solves. Such as...

Can SAFTs be swaps? A swap is an agreement in which (among other variations) one party pays cash and the other party delivers cash, securities, or other consideration in an amount based on the economic performance of a specific security or other asset. Although the CFTC has not yet issued official guidance, we currently believe that most SAFTs should properly be treated as forward purchase agreements rather than as swaps. If SAFTs are swaps, they generally could be purchased only by investors with $10 million in assets, which is considerably higher than the $1 million net-worth test for "accredited investors" under the federal securities laws.

SAFT must go away in many cases, maybe it is opportunistic for big law. It is not always a good fit for utility ICOs, crypto and blockchain technology startups.

Sure thing! Many are hoping that SAFT ICO's will be the go-to source for the US in making sure ICOs are legit, and NOT pump-and-dump scams. That's why duber Partners is issuing it's duberCoin token sale via SAFT, in the face of scares from China and Korea.

Here are some links on SAFT ICOs:

Thoughts on SAFT -->

https://prestonbyrne.com/2017/08/04/thoughts-on-the-saft/

Want to hold an ICO? Do it legally! -->

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2017/05/18/want-to-hold-an-ico-coinlist-makes-it-easy-and-legal/#5ef362fc7ce5

SAFT = confirms MEGA ICO opportunities

https://qz.com/1091812/the-secs-ico-crackdown-may-be-avoided-by-the-saft-legal-framework/

And, of course, here's a link to our SAFT ICO info: for the duberCoin ICO token sale -->

https://dubercoin.com/

"The düber ICO will use a SAFT (Simple Agreement for Future Tokens) structure which has been developed by multiple legal teams to ensure a legally compliant investment structure. We have chosen this structure to provide contributors confidence that the DBR offering is compliant with the highest level of regulatory requirements for ICOs. The SAFT structure requires accreditation of contributors under Rule 506(c) of Regulation D of Section 4(a)2 of the US Securities Act and other applicable securities laws. Investors in the SAFT offering will fund the development of the düber’s ecosystem through to the point where a public launch of the network is achieved that meets the minimum viable product requirement for use of the DBR token. At that point, the SAFTs will automatically convert, be minted into düber tokens (DBRs) and distributed to all contributors."

What are saft icos? expalin

Hi there! No official thread... I'm still a newbie member, so have limited capabilities right now! 

Is there an official thread on the forum?

Awesome! For for the input on Filecoin. Just wondering if SAFT will last, or if it's an unneeded security for potential ICO investors...?

Filecoin is probably the best know for using SAFT. 

Sure thing!

--> about SAFT:

https://medium.com/cryptos-today/icos-and-the-saft-why-what-and-how-9dee58cc0059

--> duber Partners & SAFT:

https://dubercoin.com/

"The düber ICO will use a SAFT (Simple Agreement for Future Tokens) structure which has been developed by multiple legal teams to ensure a legally compliant investment structure. We have chosen this structure to provide contributors confidence that the DBR offering is compliant with the highest level of regulatory requirements for ICOs. The SAFT structure requires accreditation of contributors under Rule 506(c) of Regulation D of Section 4(a)2 of the US Securities Act and other applicable securities laws. Investors in the SAFT offering will fund the development of the düber’s ecosystem through to the point where a public launch of the network is achieved that meets the minimum viable product requirement for use of the DBR token. At that point, the SAFTs will automatically convert, be minted into düber tokens (DBRs) and distributed to all contributors."