Is BFL using BitPay for money laundering purposes good for advancing Bitcoin? - page 2.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: Gleb Gamow on October 29, 2014, 09:05:29 PM

BFL is using BitPay as an exchange to convert their BTC to fiat and deposited into their bank oppose to only using them as a payment service provider of which that is all BitPay is, again, not an exchange.
You can't do! I can't do it! Yet, BFL has converted millions via BitPay. I just found three other BFL BWAs that have used BitPay to convert their BTC to fiat. BFL has been sooooo NAUGHTY!
Where's the fuckin' media on this?
#ASKFTC

I'm too lazy to figure out what you are ranting and raving about this time, but I don't see why BFL selling bitcoins to Bitpay would be considered illegal or fraudulent. Merchants exchange bitcoins to fiat through Bitpay all the time. Why can't BFL? Those TOS that you quoted may apply to you, but they don't have to apply to everyone.

Bicknellski

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Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:23:32 PM

Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 30, 2014, 10:22:39 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?

Lol what do you need a company or government looking over your transactions to make sure they are ok before they give you what is yours?

BitPay supposed to save the day for y'all and steal the Bitcoins back?

Wouldn't anything over 10k USD give Bitpay pause given the regulatory climate as well as the nature of the company involed. Bitpay was well aware of problems and concerns customers had with fraud from BFL considering they shared a booth at conferences.

ANTIcentralized

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Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

I agree. It would be wrong to not accept bitcoin just because it is "stolen" as bitcoin is fungible and one particular input is no different then another one (assuming they are both spendable).

I would say this very well could be the FTC cashing out the bitcoin owned by BFL in order to repay their customers, as I would find it unlikely that the FTC would allow refunds in terms of bitcoin

Gleb Gamow

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Apologies to all you guys inquiring about what's the inside info I possess, but I'm swore to secrecy. Still feel free to PM me though, whereupon I'll personally thank you for thanking me as I've been doing.

On a sad note, now you guys are keeping me busy, with nary a one being some troll PM as far as I can tell.

Gleb Gamow

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Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 30, 2014, 10:26:53 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:23:32 PM

Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 30, 2014, 10:22:39 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?

Lol what do you need a company or government looking over your transactions to make sure they are ok before they give you what is yours?

BitPay supposed to save the day for y'all and steal the Bitcoins back?

I never directly purchased anything from BFL so I have no dog in this fight. My concern is for the impact this could have on the entire bitcoin economy if BP happened to be aware of this (which at this point, I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to make such an assumption).

Sadly, I can easily prove that all the large withdraws from the https://blockchain.info/address/1QAHVyRzkmD4j1pU5W89htZ3c6D6E7iWDs BWA prior to and after the supposed HashTrade $1M USD transaction was via BitPay.

Most the proof can be found here: http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/0dd32fc1a663150a

#ASKFTC

Gleb Gamow

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Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 30, 2014, 10:21:20 PM

Why is nobody paying any attention to this? This could be VERY bad for the bitcoin economy if Bitpay was aware that BFL was using them as an exchange. Am I the only one who realizes what the OP has discovered?

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

Basically, I can reply to both your welcome posts at the same time.

Even though I don't like the alternative, I'm working under the assumption that BitPay may have been unaware of BFL's practice, albeit it'd been hard to miss.

I'm claiming that the BTC that BFL quasi-stolen from its customers were converted to fiat and deposited in some bank using BitPay as its own personal exchange, and not as a payment provider that BitPay only is.

I hate to say it, but Sonny Vleisides, Jeff Ownby and Josh Zerlan, et al., have opened up a can of worms that shouldn't have been sealed in the first place.

Suffice to say, I'm been privy to a myriad of information, and I'm hear to tell you it's a lot worse than you can imagine and what I'm all allowed to say at this time. Cry

#ASKFTC

MrGreenHat

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Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:23:32 PM

Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 30, 2014, 10:22:39 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?

Lol what do you need a company or government looking over your transactions to make sure they are ok before they give you what is yours?

BitPay supposed to save the day for y'all and steal the Bitcoins back?

I never directly purchased anything from BFL so I have no dog in this fight. My concern is for the impact this could have on the entire bitcoin economy if BP happened to be aware of this (which at this point, I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to make such an assumption).

BayAreaCoins

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Owner at AltQuick.com

Quote from: MrGreenHat on October 30, 2014, 10:22:39 PM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?

Lol what do you need a company or government looking over your transactions to make sure they are ok before they give you what is yours?

BitPay supposed to save the day for y'all and steal the Bitcoins back?

MrGreenHat

full member

Activity: 173

Merit: 104

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on October 30, 2014, 10:20:42 PM

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

You don't think BitPay's accountants wouldn't notice a transaction that large and look into it?
EDIT: to be clear, I do not believe that BitPay had prior knowledge at this point, as I believe they are a legitimate company and very much respect the business. (And I live right down the street from them).

MrGreenHat

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Why is nobody paying any attention to this? This could be VERY bad for the bitcoin economy if Bitpay was aware that BFL was using them as an exchange. Am I the only one who realizes what the OP has discovered?

BayAreaCoins

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Owner at AltQuick.com

You give BitPay BTC and you get cash.

You can't judge stolen BTC or it fucks shit up. Not accepting stolen cash is a felony in the USA I believe.

Be mad at BFL not BP.

Gleb Gamow

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Activity: 1428

Merit: 1145

Quote from: 1echo on October 30, 2014, 10:13:38 PM

this is possible hard to tell

Really? Even after it's shown that the https://blockchain.info/address/1QAHVyRzkmD4j1pU5W89htZ3c6D6E7iWDs BWA was virtually totally funded via blocks found on the block chain and paid out accordingly from BFL's (formally Josh Zerlan's) EclipseMC (EMC) pool? On top on that, Josh has yet to call me a liar even after the dozens of times I've espouse such fact, something he's always done in the past when he believed in his mind such was warranted.

Quote from: Loredo on October 30, 2014, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: Gleb Gamow on October 30, 2014, 07:56:38 PM

http://www.walletexplorer.com/txid/45d41f9297ebfbb0d840b47698698d0b3499b35ce109e55093477ffd97a49763

Lemme see if I can put this post in words. You've identified that the infamous 1QAH paid to a wallet known to belong to Eligius (i.e., Luke Jr.) an even 100 BTC, which, given the latter's known programming work for BFL, can be inferred to be compensation for work. That re-establishes that 1QAH was controlled by BFL.

Around two hours later, that 100 BTC, plus an additional 11, were transferred out of some wallets of unknown ownership, with 100, matching the payment to Eligius, going to ("repaying") 1QAH, and the rest going to another wallet of unknown ownership. One could then infer that those three wallets were also controlled by BFL.

You also note that these transfers occurred after business hours, which may or may not be significant, if this were a transaction involving a programmer.

That about sums it up. But, if I'm incorrect, Josh will be here to call me out a liar and offer up proof depicting how I'm mistaken.

Also, it looks like most all the BTC that the 1QAH BWA garnered stemmed directly from the EMC pool as shown in the following:

http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/0dd32fc1a663150a
http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/0dd32fc1a663150a?page=2
http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/0dd32fc1a663150a?page=3
http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/0dd32fc1a663150a?page=4
http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/0dd32fc1a663150a?page=5

Then, BFL was using BitPay to liquidate the BTC to fiat, treating them as an exchange oppose to ONLY as a payment processor.

#ASKFTC

I'll tell you what! Thanks to Josh showing us how the game is played, as well as sharing with us the rules, this sure the hell is a fun sport... And glad I'm on the winning team.

1echo

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scams hunter!

this is possible hard to tell

Gleb Gamow

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Quote from: Bicknellski on October 30, 2014, 09:47:42 PM

IRS has been informed about these transaction? This seems to be worse for Bitpay if they were operating as an exchange without a license to do so. Bitpay seems they were doing BFL a special service doesn't it? Legally what US laws were broken by Bitpay and BFL?

Besides money laundering on BFL's part, I haven't a clue, but I don't think it's legal for one entity - BF Labs Inc. - to pretend that another entity - HashTrade - sent the first entity a million dollars for its upcoming line of bitcoin miners, then even go out of its way to declare the following: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11283333.htm

Quote

This is a major endorsement of Butterfly Labs' technology and ability to deliver, from one of the industry's most significant players."Butterfly's technology is robust and reliable and our relationship is very strong,” said Greg Bachrach, Co-Founder and CEO of HashTrade. “Having worked with their equipment now for some time, we are confident of Butterfly Labs' ability to deliver based on their multi-generational experience designing, producing and delivering high performance mining equipment. Because of this we feel that Butterfly Labs is one of the only institutional hardware vendors uniquely positioned to deliver exactly what they advertise."

I don't know the legalese term for such practice, but I sure the hell know that it's illegal. And so does/will the FTC and whatever other three-letter agency who reads this post/thread.

Many millions were sent to BFL due to that one endorsement (the PR picked up by dozens of other periodicals) by working folks who are now entangled in the FTC lawsuit. Yet, HashTrade, NimbusMining, Netsolus and LiquidBits have yet to file their lawsuits to get their supposedly tens of millions back for non-delivery of Monarchs, but recall that LiquidBits filed as quick as possible to try to get their $6M USD back from HashFast (not HashTrade, to clarify).

#ASKFTC

PS: Now, I ask one more time: Where's the fuckin' media that has reported on much lesser Bitcoin-related issues? Fuck, I can't even get the Reddit actors to comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2kqqyu/is_bfl_using_bitpay_for_money_laundering_purposes/ It's like it's some taboo subject like 'who is Satoshi' or something akin.

Bicknellski

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IRS has been informed about these transactions? This seems to be worse for Bitpay if they were operating as an exchange without a license to do so. Bitpay seems they were doing BFL a special service doesn't it? Legally what US laws were broken by Bitpay and BFL?

Gleb Gamow

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This is weird! According to this transaction, BitPay is using BitStamp to ??: https://blockchain.info/tx/baaa36348f7228ec46570ead17f764af133dd5a7cd07c67dd14e31124017ec2f

http://www.walletexplorer.com/address/1L7T67j4um5BTFpzvyqd3ShqEBDruZnEW4 ---> http://www.walletexplorer.com/address/15QTGigFgnMpqcg5tQwBszQ94me98ZTVkr

Gleb Gamow

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http://www.walletexplorer.com/txid/45d41f9297ebfbb0d840b47698698d0b3499b35ce109e55093477ffd97a49763

More proof that the QAHVyRzkmD4j1pU5W89htZ3c6D6E7iWDs BWA doesn't belong to HashTrade but to BFL, for I can now easily site a myriad, as in dozens, such transactions stemming from said and similar BWAs verified to belong to BFL paying Luke Jr. for various services. In fact, if you note the date of the transaction you'll realize that HashTrade had yet to create a web presence as witnessed here: http://web.archive.org/web/20130401000000*/http://hashtrade.com

#ASKFTC

Gleb Gamow

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Quote from: MineForeman.com on October 30, 2014, 02:14:51 AM

How do you link that transfer to BFL?

BFL used BitPay to liquidate a million dollars worth of BTC stemming from who knows where, also opting to get their buds, HashTrade, into the act by having them claim that said bogus transaction came from them for the purchase of Monarch bitcoin miners, now getting BitPay caught up in their con actions. Two days later, BFL had a million dollars in their bank account, and that's if BFL used their business account to do such, otherwise Sonny Vleisides and Jeff Ownby split the booty, after giving Josh and Nasser their cuts of course.

The above is fact and breaking news, but for the life of me I don't understand why Matthew N. Wright's Bitcoin Magazine doesn't pen an article around it.

#ASKFTC

MineForeman.com

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How do you link that transfer to BFL?

Gleb Gamow

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This should get the media and #ASKFTC attentions: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2kqqyu/is_bfl_using_bitpay_for_money_laundering_purposes/

Topic: Is BFL using BitPay for money laundering purposes good for advancing Bitcoin? - page 2. (Read 3771 times)