Topic: Is bit coin legal in the US? (Read 60846 times)
national currencies are money. And I wonder what his opinion would be on bitcoin.
My one reservation is the involvement of the thiel foundation. And national currencies are money.
Quote
“We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government,” Tompkins said.
The government, our leaders more specifically, are going to do whatever they want to protect their interests, unless the supreme court says otherwise.
Those interests are not you and I.
Those interests are protecting the people that got them into office, and again, I do not mean the voters, in general.
Most are dupes, while some are adepts.
Those interests are the insidious influence indoctrinating our kids, poinsoning us, manipulating us, trying to strip us of our wealth, land, and creator-endowed rights (un-a-lien-able birth rights), in order to create a two-class world of subjects enslaved by debt, serv(ic)ing the rulers.
It will only end when the people of the world stand in unison, stating, "I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!"
You ever hear of how to cook a frog?
You see, to cook a good tasting frog, he needs to be alive when you cook him, much like a lobster, or else it wont taste as good, and if you put him in hot boiling water he splashes around and jumps out. However, if you put him in lukewarm water and turn the heat up slowly, he does not notice the difference until its to late and he passes out to be cooked good and proper.
That is the average world citizen... A frog in the pot slowly getting cooked through incrementalism and gradualism ... who doesnt even know its happening, and they usually malign or laughs at those that try to educate them.
So I dont really have much hope for the bitcoin or the citizens of the world in general.
but hey I hope I am wrong and I really like the bitcoins =)
Those interests are not you and I.
Those interests are protecting the people that got them into office, and again, I do not mean the voters, in general.
Most are dupes, while some are adepts.
Those interests are the insidious influence indoctrinating our kids, poinsoning us, manipulating us, trying to strip us of our wealth, land, and creator-endowed rights (un-a-lien-able birth rights), in order to create a two-class world of subjects enslaved by debt, serv(ic)ing the rulers.
It will only end when the people of the world stand in unison, stating, "I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!"
You ever hear of how to cook a frog?
You see, to cook a good tasting frog, he needs to be alive when you cook him, much like a lobster, or else it wont taste as good, and if you put him in hot boiling water he splashes around and jumps out. However, if you put him in lukewarm water and turn the heat up slowly, he does not notice the difference until its to late and he passes out to be cooked good and proper.
That is the average world citizen... A frog in the pot slowly getting cooked through incrementalism and gradualism ... who doesnt even know its happening, and they usually malign or laughs at those that try to educate them.
So I dont really have much hope for the bitcoin or the citizens of the world in general.
but hey I hope I am wrong and I really like the bitcoins =)
See here
http://www.famguardian1.org/Subjects/Taxes/ChallJurisdiction/Definitions/freemaninvestigation.pdf
for proof about what I said about the law referring to states does NOT mean any of the fifty states.
http://www.famguardian1.org/Subjects/Taxes/ChallJurisdiction/Definitions/freemaninvestigation.pdf
for proof about what I said about the law referring to states does NOT mean any of the fifty states.
I am not a lawyer.
But it looks to me like No, just running Bitcoin doesn't make you a "money transmitting business." To be a "business" you have to be charging people for your service.
If you're running Bitcoin to buy or sell goods or services in exchange for bitcoins, I'd say you're not in the money transmitting business.
However, if I were to start a company in the business of buying and selling Bitcoins, or that was a Bitcoin payment processing intermediary that took a percentage of transactions between buyers and sellers, I'd talk to a lawyer and jump through all the legal hoops (looks like here in Massachusetts I'd need a license and would have to post a $50,000 bond).
Or to put it in more concrete terms: I am not a money transmitting business when I use my credit card to pay for something from Amazon.com.
And Amazon.com is not a money transmitting business just because they accept payments.
However, Amazon Payments, Inc. (Amazon's Paypal competitor) is licensed as a money service business in a bunch of US states.
I now most people won't believe this but a STATE in the above legal quote does NOT include Florida Virginia etc because there are three different definitions of THE UNITED STATES and the law refers to one that means the US GOVT and all that it has jurisdiction over which is DC and some territories but NOT any of the FIFTY Sovereign states. Remember the states created the federal Govt which has now become a rogue bastard tyrant serving the elite bankster puppetmasters. But it looks to me like No, just running Bitcoin doesn't make you a "money transmitting business." To be a "business" you have to be charging people for your service.
If you're running Bitcoin to buy or sell goods or services in exchange for bitcoins, I'd say you're not in the money transmitting business.
However, if I were to start a company in the business of buying and selling Bitcoins, or that was a Bitcoin payment processing intermediary that took a percentage of transactions between buyers and sellers, I'd talk to a lawyer and jump through all the legal hoops (looks like here in Massachusetts I'd need a license and would have to post a $50,000 bond).
Or to put it in more concrete terms: I am not a money transmitting business when I use my credit card to pay for something from Amazon.com.
And Amazon.com is not a money transmitting business just because they accept payments.
However, Amazon Payments, Inc. (Amazon's Paypal competitor) is licensed as a money service business in a bunch of US states.
Have you heard about Tor?
Sort of, which is why I suggested that forcibly shutting such a system down would be impracticable if not impossible.
let alone technical aspects[Tor unsuitable for real-use]
if you SERIOUSLY concerned - check I2P or similar systems/networks.
Bitcoin's legal status will be entirely dependent upon it's rate of adoption, and specifically how it effects the velocity of the USD. The feds won't care too much about this until it starts interfering with the banking system. At that point they will throw everything at bitcoin. It won't just be the US either as every other central bank will not take too kindly to having a form of currency out of their domestic control.
That is exactly the problem, and the beauty, of bitcoin is that it aims for the very heart of the global financial system. The only way governments have any control over their economy is through the banking system via the central banks. If bitcoin takes off in any meaningful way it will be a direct threat to the very foundation of all governments, without control of the currency (and the economic power that comes with it) governments -all of them- have very little power.
The question of the legality of bitcoin at this point in time is moot. The real question is how long it will take before simply having bitcoins will get you labeled a domestic terrorist. That is the endgame.
That is exactly the problem, and the beauty, of bitcoin is that it aims for the very heart of the global financial system. The only way governments have any control over their economy is through the banking system via the central banks. If bitcoin takes off in any meaningful way it will be a direct threat to the very foundation of all governments, without control of the currency (and the economic power that comes with it) governments -all of them- have very little power.
The question of the legality of bitcoin at this point in time is moot. The real question is how long it will take before simply having bitcoins will get you labeled a domestic terrorist. That is the endgame.
You might have issues if you opened an exchange with branches in multiple states, and offered transfers between them.
Otherwise, unless you really do the research and know the meaning of literally every word, I'd take US code with a grain of salt.
Otherwise, unless you really do the research and know the meaning of literally every word, I'd take US code with a grain of salt.
There's an interesting draft of a paper examining the US legality of Bitcoin at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1817857
The author is looking for feedback.
The author is looking for feedback.
Have you heard about Tor?
Sort of, which is why I suggested that forcibly shutting such a system down would be impracticable if not impossible.
When the time comes, the Feds will find any pretext they like in order to shut down bitcoin.
I'm not saying such a thing won't be attempted in the future, but I am curious as how such a thing could succeed, lacking any kind of central entity or server? I just learned about BitCoin but isn't it completely decentralized?
I suppose an order could be made at the ISP level to restrict/cancel any packets that resemble BitCoin packets.
Have you heard about Tor?
When the time comes, the Feds will find any pretext they like in order to shut down bitcoin.
I'm not saying such a thing won't be attempted in the future, but I am curious as how such a thing could succeed, lacking any kind of central entity or server? I just learned about BitCoin but isn't it completely decentralized?
I suppose an order could be made at the ISP level to restrict/cancel any packets that resemble BitCoin packets.
Quote
(1) the term “unlicensed money transmitting business” means a money transmitting business which affects interstate or foreign commerce in any manner or degree and—
(A) is operated without an appropriate money transmitting license in a State where such operation is punishable as a misdemeanor or a felony under State law, whether or not the defendant knew that the operation was required to be licensed or that the operation was so punishable;
(B) fails to comply with the money transmitting business registration requirements under section 5330 of title 31, United States Code, or regulations prescribed under such section; or
(C) otherwise involves the transportation or transmission of funds that are known to the defendant to have been derived from a criminal offense or are intended to be used to promote or support unlawful activity;
(2) the term “money transmitting” includes transferring funds on behalf of the public by any and all means including but not limited to transfers within this country or to locations abroad by wire, check, draft, facsimile, or courier; and
(3) the term “State” means any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Northern Mariana Islands, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.
(A) is operated without an appropriate money transmitting license in a State where such operation is punishable as a misdemeanor or a felony under State law, whether or not the defendant knew that the operation was required to be licensed or that the operation was so punishable;
(B) fails to comply with the money transmitting business registration requirements under section 5330 of title 31, United States Code, or regulations prescribed under such section; or
(C) otherwise involves the transportation or transmission of funds that are known to the defendant to have been derived from a criminal offense or are intended to be used to promote or support unlawful activity;
(2) the term “money transmitting” includes transferring funds on behalf of the public by any and all means including but not limited to transfers within this country or to locations abroad by wire, check, draft, facsimile, or courier; and
(3) the term “State” means any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, the Northern Mariana Islands, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.
So a Bitcoin miner would qualify, then.
I disagree. The bitcoin mining is legal since they are dealing/transacting purely in bitcoins, an unregulated virtual commodity. Maybe the only part of the network, other than local bitcoin clients and wallets, that is currently indisputably legal.
The exchanges that exchange from fiat currencies into bitcoin are the gray area since they transact in the money of the state.
Personal transactions of small amounts of bitcoin involving state monies are legal in most places.
Merchants accepting bitcoin would do well to check their current, ever-changing laws regarding financial transactions, if they care what the state thinks about how they conduct their business.
If that is what the "West" is; I hate to think what the "East" is.
Like the above but worse, and without even pretending to have justice.
Don't worry so much about the legality; if you've not noticed already, you're living under a coporatocracy/financial dictatorship in the USA. Pretty much anything is made illegal or needs to be icenced by the government before you can engage in it.
The government then sells these licences to the corporations who themeselves rig the game through lobbying and writing the legislation.
More and more people are being branded "terrorists" - like the guy of the liberty dollar. He was engaged in non-crime and not harming anyone, all parties willingly used the currency and knew they were not Federal Reserve notes. The Feds can find a jury that will send a kitten to the electric chair - a terrorists kitten at that.
When the time comes, the Feds will find any pretext they like in order to shut down bitcoin. Used by Al-CIA-Duh, money laundering, drug money, terrorists, whatever. At this point the West is morally bankrupt and soon to be financially bankrupt too.
What happens when the crack down on it will be interesting, I predict it will morph over to other jurisdictions, afterall it's a very useful piece of software, even if you just use to manage a baby sitting network!
The government then sells these licences to the corporations who themeselves rig the game through lobbying and writing the legislation.
More and more people are being branded "terrorists" - like the guy of the liberty dollar. He was engaged in non-crime and not harming anyone, all parties willingly used the currency and knew they were not Federal Reserve notes. The Feds can find a jury that will send a kitten to the electric chair - a terrorists kitten at that.
When the time comes, the Feds will find any pretext they like in order to shut down bitcoin. Used by Al-CIA-Duh, money laundering, drug money, terrorists, whatever. At this point the West is morally bankrupt and soon to be financially bankrupt too.
What happens when the crack down on it will be interesting, I predict it will morph over to other jurisdictions, afterall it's a very useful piece of software, even if you just use to manage a baby sitting network!
If that is what the "West" is; I hate to think what the "East" is.
Don't worry so much about the legality; if you've not noticed already, you're living under a coporatocracy/financial dictatorship in the USA. Pretty much anything is made illegal or needs to be icenced by the government before you can engage in it.
The government then sells these licences to the corporations who themeselves rig the game through lobbying and writing the legislation.
More and more people are being branded "terrorists" - like the guy of the liberty dollar. He was engaged in non-crime and not harming anyone, all parties willingly used the currency and knew they were not Federal Reserve notes. The Feds can find a jury that will send a kitten to the electric chair - a terrorists kitten at that.
When the time comes, the Feds will find any pretext they like in order to shut down bitcoin. Used by Al-CIA-Duh, money laundering, drug money, terrorists, whatever. At this point the West is morally bankrupt and soon to be financially bankrupt too.
What happens when the crack down on it will be interesting, I predict it will morph over to other jurisdictions, afterall it's a very useful piece of software, even if you just use to manage a baby sitting network!
The government then sells these licences to the corporations who themeselves rig the game through lobbying and writing the legislation.
More and more people are being branded "terrorists" - like the guy of the liberty dollar. He was engaged in non-crime and not harming anyone, all parties willingly used the currency and knew they were not Federal Reserve notes. The Feds can find a jury that will send a kitten to the electric chair - a terrorists kitten at that.
When the time comes, the Feds will find any pretext they like in order to shut down bitcoin. Used by Al-CIA-Duh, money laundering, drug money, terrorists, whatever. At this point the West is morally bankrupt and soon to be financially bankrupt too.
What happens when the crack down on it will be interesting, I predict it will morph over to other jurisdictions, afterall it's a very useful piece of software, even if you just use to manage a baby sitting network!
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 95 > § 1960 - Wouldn't apply because BitCoin is not recognized as Money because:
The legal tender of the U.S. or of any foreign country, or any counterfeit thereof. 18 USC
Gold, silver, and some other less precious metals, in the progress of civilization and commerce, have become the common standards of value; in order to avoid the delay and inconvenience of regulating their weight and quality whenever passed, the governments of the civilized world have caused them to be manufactured in certain portions, and marked with a Stamp which attests their value; this is called money.For many purposes, bank notes, a check, and negotiable notes will be so considered. To support a count for money had and received, the receipt by the defendant of bank notes, promissory notes, credit in account, in the books of a third person, or any chattel, is sufficient and will be treated as money.The Constitution of the United States has vested in congress the power "to coin money, and regulate the value thereof." Art. I, s. 8.
BitCoin doesn't even have physical form. But technically we are globally trading un-couterfitable monopoly money. But Local Money is also being created in certain area like Massachusetts etc... Which is fine, but it will not be treated as Money in a Federal Court, maybe the state court or local court.
The big thing here, is that if it works, even if they wanted to regulate it, they can't. It would sort of be like outlawing Air. Only way to stop it would be to turn of the net.
The legal tender of the U.S. or of any foreign country, or any counterfeit thereof. 18 USC
Gold, silver, and some other less precious metals, in the progress of civilization and commerce, have become the common standards of value; in order to avoid the delay and inconvenience of regulating their weight and quality whenever passed, the governments of the civilized world have caused them to be manufactured in certain portions, and marked with a Stamp which attests their value; this is called money.For many purposes, bank notes, a check, and negotiable notes will be so considered. To support a count for money had and received, the receipt by the defendant of bank notes, promissory notes, credit in account, in the books of a third person, or any chattel, is sufficient and will be treated as money.The Constitution of the United States has vested in congress the power "to coin money, and regulate the value thereof." Art. I, s. 8.
BitCoin doesn't even have physical form. But technically we are globally trading un-couterfitable monopoly money. But Local Money is also being created in certain area like Massachusetts etc... Which is fine, but it will not be treated as Money in a Federal Court, maybe the state court or local court.
The big thing here, is that if it works, even if they wanted to regulate it, they can't. It would sort of be like outlawing Air. Only way to stop it would be to turn of the net.
They dont need to regulate it, they're fine just taxing you on Bit Coins like they tax dollars.
So a Bitcoin miner would qualify, then.
Bitcoin mining is not really even mining it is distributing bitcoins already created.[/quote]
Exactly, that's the problem.
So a Bitcoin miner would qualify, then.
[/quote]
What about Gold or Topps Baseball Cards or Pokemon cards and their manufacturers. Bitcoin mining is not really even mining it is distributing bitcoins already created.
[/quote]
What about Gold or Topps Baseball Cards or Pokemon cards and their manufacturers. Bitcoin mining is not really even mining it is distributing bitcoins already created.
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