Topic: Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications? - page 5. (Read 16948 times)

Curious what intrisic value these tulips had/have???

the Worldwide Financial System as a whole is a Pyramid/Ponzi  !!!!!

a lil example on interrest rates

If Joseph in the year zero, had laid in  One cent  on the imaginary bank of Jerusalem, at five percent interest, after 15 years would be due to him two cents,
after 29 years, four, after 53 years  8 cents. One hundred years later, his descendants would then be able to withdraw € 1.11 and after 250 years,
there were already about a thousand euros ...

In 2000, out of the One cent would finally become  2 times 10 ^40  (2.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000.000 euros).
Extrapolating this amount into gold, so Joseph's descendants would be entitled to 436 billion globes of pure gold! Corresponding large the debt would be to the other.

Repeating:


It is not like a tulip bubble, because tulips have intrinsic value. I hear they are still very valuable today.

Why do I need to keep repeating that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value if it is not a currency.

And there is no way to deconcentrate it from the current 90+% of BTC is in a few hands. Thus it can't be a widely accepted currency, because it is not widely held and can't be widely held. By the time 1% of the global population has purchased, it will be priced on the order $30,000+ and then the other 99% won't be able to afford to get much BTC at all. You say that is okay, but it means you impoverish the rest of the world relative to early adopters so the velocity of money would collapse, because very rich people spend a much smaller % of their money than middle class people. The 99% will never go for that arrangement, they will stick with fiat and then the collapse of Bitcoin's bubble will ensue and the stampede to the exits with all trampled and value lost.

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It cant possibly be a ponzi scheme because it goes against the definition.  There is nobody in charge that is payign you extra money.  It is pure supply and demand.  It could bubble like the tulip bubble, but bitcoins are very convenient, so I doubt it.

See the posts by Impaler. He lucidly explained Bitcoin matches better a Pyramid than Ponzi, which I had also included in the OP. Read again the title of the thread.


Absolutely not. Hyperinflation is nothing like the mechanism of a Ponzi scheme. That is very sloppy analysis to conflate those two very different mechanisms.

In hyperinflation, the central actor is increasing the supply forcing all the users of the currency to race faster to unload the depreciating currency.

In Ponzi (or Pyramid), the later investors are bringing in all the money to pay the gains of the early investors.

If you don't see that Cat is not Horse. Then I can't help you.


Nonsense. The 90+% concentration of coins in a few hands, tells you that people are not investing in Bitcoin to use it for spending. They are investing for gains. And if gains stop they will exit. Here I quote an investor (a "friend") who owns 10,000 Bitcoins:



That is precisely the reason it will collapse and not come back up again. But we are a long ways from that. Appears the elite and the media are pushing it. It will likely reach $trillions in market cap with all of the liberty lovers in it before it collapses in a ball of fire stampede to the exits.


I am sorry to hear you can't follow the logic on why it isn't a currency and why that means no one can exit.

Lets do a little simple math as follows.

Joe invests $100 to buy all the BTC from Satoshi on day 1, all of BTC is worth $100
Sally invests $1000 to buy 10% of BTC from Joe, all of BTC is worth $10,000

Joe wants to withdraw his $9000, but there is only $1100 invested in BTC.

You see if they can't spend it as BTC, then it is never worth the level of cash that was brought in.

You see most people can't do math in their head. They need to see it.

So now you see it.

yes if you change a few words bitcoin matches a bit better the definition of a ponzi, that doesn't mean it is one.
Changing a few words for a fiat currency would make it match a ponzi definition too, do it with the Zimbabwe fiat!


Now  even with your little tricks one part of the sec definition remain ineffective with bitcoin



It is quite obvious that if you stop putting money in bitcoin the price of a bitcoin will simply have no sense anymore because nobody will want to buy. But also nobody will want to sell.
That doesn't mean that the bitcoin network would stop.

This has been proven true in the past, bitcoin already survive sevral big depression with less poeple on board willing to put less money for quite a long time. Bitcoin did survive to this when a ponzi would colapse.

Bitcoin might collapse, but it certainlly won't collapse only for the reason that poeple stop putting money in it.



Finally you make the assumption that bitcoin is a currency or that bitcoin must be a currency to succeed or that bitcoin holder "want it" to be only a currency and this is a false assumption until you proved it.

Bitcoin is not a ponzi because:

BTC does not give you return `1 btc will always be 1 btc and never become more

The fact it becomes worth more $ is because the real ponzi scheme that has been going on for the last 100 years is the ones with pension funds and paper money. The rise in value is only due to the higher amount of user sharing the same amount of coins. When the internet first showed up people sayed it was a bubble, but it where actually all new users who would never leave cyberspace. Same with btc, after using it people are convinced of its workings and make the switch. This is no bubble or ponzi scheme, but a lot of people discovering a new technology.

I do not own a television because i believe it is meant for indoctrination, and i have to say i really believe all people who watch television are brainwashed. They all say the same bogus agrument about ponzi schemes. Did you know Tom Dwam gave a interview to CNBC where the reporter asks if poker is a ponzi scheme?

WAKE UP! People are lying to you, they deliberately give you false information to profit from your ignorance and trust, speak out because this market can't be regulated. This is what your so called money (which is a currency) is worth in bitcoin, it's true free market.

I think China has to wash all their dollars over the bitcoin market until the Americans get it:D

Logic fail.

Although I wish that was true, I already pointed out that it can't be true until BTC is a currency, but there is no way for BTC to become a currency, because it can't be deconcentrated and dispersed.

I do appreciate the sentiments, and that is why I offered a solution that would meet your goals.

You are conflating your hate towards the system, with the fact that Bitcoin doesn't help you, because Satoshi designed it to fail. You've been hoodwinked but you are letting your hate of the system obscure your objectivity on the fact that Bitcoin was designed to suck all your system-haters into a scam that destroys you.

Very clever who ever dropped Bitcoin out of the sky.


I agree with most of that, but if you think China's elite are any better (they are different but not better) than Western elite, you have a painful lesson coming to you.

You need to also wakeup and stop being so gullible and naive.

You are only 1/8 awake. You haven't reached the level of awareness that Impaler and I have.

I added this to the OP.

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Edit: Not limiting the supply of coins to 21M has no downsides and has other benefits too:

I think this is correct strategy. See from the poll that some percentage understand, and they are the ones we should save, because they will run the economy after all the rest destroy themselves.

We are doing our part here to explain it to those who want to be wise and join "us".*

Of course I am joking about joining the Illuminati, because that is enjoining failure too. We must provide a decentralized solution that works well for those who are worth saving.

*Note I am not currently involved with Freicoin in any way.


I edited the poll question to include "pyramid".

The float between all national currencies is sufficiently large that the exchange rate doesn't move 1200% per year and 20% in a day, as it does with Bitcoin. Usually a few % at most per day only. Thus your fiat account balance is still fairly accurate as converted to foreign fiat currencies.

I wrote upthread that if we could better distribute a coin and get a larger float then we could get closer to calling that coin a currency. This is impossible with Bitcoin because of the ASICs and the 21M limit.

There is no mechanism in Bitcoin that can lower the concentration of the coins (at least not significantly enough to matter). You expect to give yours away to help solve the problem? Selfishness and greed was the problem from the very moment Satoshi pitched the gold lie about the coin supply curve.

P.S. We don't do most of our commerce in foreign fiat currencies, and when we do decades from now, there will be a single currency for the world. That is the whole point of why we have to fight against a failed outcome. The elite have a plan and Bitcoin is part of it.

Well frankly your fighting a Balrog here, but you might as well use a fork rather then a spoon.

I personally don't try to save the whole forum from itself, like the Catcher in the Rye I just look for thouse who want to be saved and try to invite them to Freicoin.

Good advice.

You didn't answer whether we should give up join the Illuminati instead?  

You very confident we can win against this mass mania?

You should tell my credit card issuers that. Whenever I use my Canadian credit cards to import goods or services from the US, some seemingly randomly marked up number of Canadian dollars ends up on my bill!

Your argument is a red-herring. Bitcoin can be a valuable internet currency without being anyone's primary currency.

Oh sorry AnonyMint, I skimmed your OP too lightly and missed that statement of yours.  Still I would argue that BTC is fully Pyramid in it's nature and not Ponzi.  Both Pyramids and Ponzi's are sustainable only by exponential growth, but in the key areas they differ (central vs decentralized), (one promoter, many promoters), (facts of investment hidden, facts disclosed truthful) each aspect of the Prymaid matches BTC perfectly while the Ponzi scheme dose not.

BTW I added an expansion of my 2nd Paragraph in my first post that deals with the information disclosure differences in Ponzi vs Pryamid situations.

I would best describe BTC a a pyramid scheme with tech-stock bubble overtones and ideological promotions, and I'd advise you to refine your critic of BTC in this manor because it will be more effective.  BTC defenders can and do point out several of these distinctions like lack of centralization which the average person dose associate with a Ponzi scheme.  Thus when you call BTC a Ponzi your argument will be easily undermined by this rebuttal, if you argue it is a pyramid the average person (once they know what a pyramid scheme is) will be far more likely to see the similarity and the standard BTC promoters well trained Ponzi rebuttal will fail.

Their is a good reason that FAQ for Bitcoin go out of their way to have "Is BTC a Ponzi scheme" and why every promoter has virtually memorized and can parrot a rebuttal to the Ponzi accusation, so they can essentially knock down a straw man and thus put the prospective adopter at ease because most people lack the sophistication to realize their are more types of scams then just Ponzis.  But they NEVER dare to breath the word Pryamid because their really is NO defense they can mount to that.

Also I'll give your poll a yes vote because I agree with your general opinion but I would have preferred 'some other kind o fraud' as an option.

@anonymint

thanks for your efforts with the list,
i'll read through when my brain's a bit fresher.
also i have to read through the killswitch thread.
very interesting...will post soon

Converting from one currency to another is not spending a currency. When you spend a currency, there is no exchange price. That is a key factor of why one currency always dominates an economy. Imagine if you were paid in dollars but had to purchase your food in Bitcoin. You would go crazy trying to plan your budget, due to exchange volatility.

The OP explained that you can't divest Bitcoin by spending it, not in large size at least. Thus your only option for spending it (in most cases) is to convert it to fiat.


Point #3 discusses why it is not a currency as well other posts in this thread.


I never wrote that market balance = fraud.


Of course stock markets provide market balances. But bank accounts do not, not when you are spending your money on goods and services. That is why comparing stocks to currencies is a strawman.

You can't at the same time argue that Bitcoin is a currency, then tell me I must convert it through a market balance to another currency before I can spend it (in most cases).

And this is why you can't withdraw your balance without losing some of its value, at least if your balance is larger than the current market float.

Unlike a bank account, I can withdraw my balance at full value without worrying about whether the spot-market balance reflects my true account value or not.

As point #12 explains, this is critical when defining a pyramid or ponzi scheme, because not knowing your account's true balance (you can't until you actually sell it on the market) means Bitcoin is not 100% transparent. It can't be 100% transparent.

Really? I have a Canadian bank account which as it happens quotes me a balance in both Canadian and US dollars. What do you suppose the odds are that if I walk into my bank tomorrow morning and ask for all my cash in US dollars that I get the exact amount quoted tonight?  

Point 4 doesn't prove bitcoin has no intrinsic value, it assumes it.
Kinda like how point 12 "points out" that a market balance is clearly fraud.

As usual, you fail to read and comprehend the point made upthread.

#4 and #12 point out that stocks have intinsic value and Bitcoin doesn't if it is not a currency. Thus you can't compare this to stocks. Your bank account that holds your currency doesn't give you a market balance.

Really basic 101 things that were never explained in the Bitcoin wiki.

I agreed in the OP:


I also concur with the other points you made and you stated them more eloquently or lucidly than I did.

One of the first flaws that stuck out to me like a sore thumb was Satoshi comparing Bitcoin's declining coin rewards to gold. I smelled immediately a scam. Good to see you saw that too.

I guess we are the only two guys who don't lack of 'categorical imperative' morals on the entire forum here?

That would be a very sad statement about humanity if that is the case. Should you and I join the Illuminati and be done with the cattle then? Or is there hope for us to save them from themselves?