Is bitcoin closest to libertarianism? and if it succeeds would it be proof of

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: akspecs on March 05, 2013, 03:31:39 PM

Quote from: Richy_T on March 05, 2013, 11:35:38 AM

Quote from: akspecs on March 04, 2013, 08:34:19 AM

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

Socialism is not a voluntary system just because it contains some of the same letters in the same order as "society". It requires state force to operate.

This is a common misconception. Not to get into some big argument or anything like that but Marx wrote about the "withering away of the state". I'm no socialist, but I'm just trying to be fair and claim that anyone of any political ideology can justify their use for bitcoin.

Another thing you would read from Marx is the big time "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" quote. The bitcoin p2p network is exactly this, as are torrents. Each downloads and transacts as they please, and offer whatever bandwidth they can to help others transact.

Simply claiming that this is an invention for libertarians is a road to nowhere, seeing that not everyone is a libertarian.

Well, that's certainly an interesting interpretation of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need." It makes sense, but I doubt that's how Marx originally intended it. I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again later: Socialism works fine, among friends and family. In larger groups, where most of them are strangers, it either ceases being socialism, or it ceases being voluntary.

akspecs

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Quote from: Richy_T on March 05, 2013, 11:35:38 AM

Quote from: akspecs on March 04, 2013, 08:34:19 AM

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

Socialism is not a voluntary system just because it contains some of the same letters in the same order as "society". It requires state force to operate.

This is a common misconception. Not to get into some big argument or anything like that but Marx wrote about the "withering away of the state". I'm no socialist, but I'm just trying to be fair and claim that anyone of any political ideology can justify their use for bitcoin.

Another thing you would read from Marx is the big time "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" quote. The bitcoin p2p network is exactly this, as are torrents. Each downloads and transacts as they please, and offer whatever bandwidth they can to help others transact.

Simply claiming that this is an invention for libertarians is a road to nowhere, seeing that not everyone is a libertarian.

Richy_T

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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

Quote from: akspecs on March 04, 2013, 08:34:19 AM

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

Socialism is not a voluntary system just because it contains some of the same letters in the same order as "society". It requires state force to operate.

nwbitcoin

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 04, 2013, 07:45:24 PM

I read in sequence, thank you for trying to answer.

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 04, 2013, 07:31:57 PM

...
I haven't got the time to teach you how to read a thread in sequence...

I have time to teach you to not unjustly paint Libertarianism in a bad light.
You want "sequence", OK let's start at the top:

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 03, 2013, 06:27:12 AM

...
In a simple world of libertarian ideals...

That is already a load of BS. (i.e A typical mindless smear against free markets)
A world of libertarian ideals does not need to be simple. Do you agree?

All the best ideas are simple, just not too simple! Wink

nwbitcoin

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Lethn on March 05, 2013, 07:23:01 AM

What people don't realise is that you can always just walk out of the whole system and ignore it.

Going off the grid is a nice idea, but it doesn't really work if you also want to live in a civil society.

The local police only keep the criminals off your back if you keep paying them the local taxes.

Lethn

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What people don't realise is that you can always just walk out of the whole system and ignore it.

nwbitcoin

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Lethn on March 05, 2013, 06:40:50 AM

Look at Bittorrent as an example of something working without corporatism that system has had nothing but hate from corporations and yet it's thriving and is more popular than ever, these kind of decentralised technologies are designed to work without any sort of regulative body or corporation behind it, sure corporate backing can do things, but it isn't as necessary as you seem to think.

There are two different issues here. There is the technical one which needs some support to grow, but not much. On the other hand bitcoin needs legal support due to what it is, a new form of currency. That doesn't get into the party without someone noticing its not wearing a tie! Wink

Lethn

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Look at Bittorrent as an example of something working without corporatism that system has had nothing but hate from corporations and yet it's thriving and is more popular than ever, these kind of decentralised technologies are designed to work without any sort of regulative body or corporation behind it, sure corporate backing can do things, but it isn't as necessary as you seem to think.

nwbitcoin

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Lethn on March 05, 2013, 04:12:20 AM

Quote

However, unlike Libertarianism, corporatism exists in the real world and is the only way to grow a business to a national and international level.

..... You are aware we're on a Bitcoin forum right? That may have been true a few years ago but it isn't now LOL Cheesy

Really?

One of the reasons that bitcoin is taking off is because some people in Wall St like the idea.

Wall St is the home of Corporatism with its closed shop mentality, thousands of pages of regulations and political lobbyists.

As things are at the moment, bitcoin needs to wind in its free market spirit if it wants to grow. If it wants to be recognized as a currency, it needs to start jumping through some corporatist hoops. If it does take off, one of the first things that will happen is that you will need to be a financially qualified to do more than save and spend it.

Welcome to the regulated market - it certainly isn't libertarian!

Lethn

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Quote

However, unlike Libertarianism, corporatism exists in the real world and is the only way to grow a business to a national and international level.

..... You are aware we're on a Bitcoin forum right? That may have been true a few years ago but it isn't now LOL Cheesy

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

I read in sequence, thank you for trying to answer.

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 04, 2013, 07:31:57 PM

...
I haven't got the time to teach you how to read a thread in sequence...

I have time to teach you to not unjustly paint Libertarianism in a bad light.
You want "sequence", OK let's start at the top:

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 03, 2013, 06:27:12 AM

...
In a simple world of libertarian ideals...

That is already a load of BS. (i.e A typical mindless smear against free markets)
A world of libertarian ideals does not need to be simple. Do you agree?

nwbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 04, 2013, 07:08:02 PM

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 04, 2013, 06:58:39 PM

Obviously, I have written a post that was designed...

Please, have the integrity to answer the main point, or admit you are unable for some reason.

FYI:
Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

I haven't got the time to teach you how to read a thread in sequence so let me just say that I agree with you that corporatism stinks.

However, unlike Libertarianism, corporatism exists in the real world and is the only way to grow a business to a national and international level.

My original point was that if you wanted to see libertarianism in the real world, you would need to find employment for all the people that the current corporatist system employs. Without that happening, you are destined to create a third world country very quickly.

Now will you retract your suggestion that I support the actions of companies like the ones you named?

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 04, 2013, 06:58:39 PM

Obviously, I have written a post that was designed...

Please, have the integrity to answer the main point, or admit you are unable for some reason.

FYI:
Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

nwbitcoin

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 04, 2013, 04:20:23 PM

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 04, 2013, 05:23:33 AM

...if we didn't have the regulatory system in place that corporatism has given us.

Do you have any objections to it? Please Share!

Enron
Bernie Madoff
Real estate mortgage meltdown

Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

Obviously, I have written a post that was designed for someone with the ability to read, and understand abstract ideas, and that is my fault.

I won't do it again! Wink

Bit_Happy

legendary

Activity: 2114

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 04, 2013, 05:23:33 AM

...if we didn't have the regulatory system in place that corporatism has given us.

Do you have any objections to it? Please Share!

Enron
Bernie Madoff
Real estate mortgage meltdown

Corporatism and your prized regulatory system provide central control which can be/is abused by people with access to that centralized control.

Snipes777

full member

Activity: 132

Merit: 100

90% of arguments can be decided by defining the terms. There is a difference between political libertarianism (constitutionalism, minarchy) and philosophical libertarianism (voluntaryism, anarchy).

This is some of the difference. Of course, it is the goal of most bitcoin people that bitcoin- with no state oversight- will be better and out-compete government currencies. This is much more indicative that people use what they prefer and what is easier, better, and cheaper for the ends they want. If this is what you define as libertarianism, and bitcoin succeeds then it would be verification.

Dabs

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The Concierge of Crypto

Bitcoin is a way to transfer ownership or control of stores of value, quickly, and in such a way that it has as it's properties: basically you can't double spend coins, you can't reverse transactions... It's money that is almost like cash. I think of it as a check that clears in 10 minutes. If the transaction doesn't get confirmed soon, it will be by tomorrow, so it's not something I worry much about for what I use it for.

I regularly tell people to wait a day for stuff.

akspecs

newbie

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I think BTC will resemble whatever the individual wants it to resemble.

An anarchist will claim that it is perfect anarchy because of it's decentralized existence.

A socialist will claim that it is perfect socialism because of it's peer to peer existence.

(after all, look no further than the world of torrents to see what perfect socialism looks like)

Ben Bernanke will claim that it is the pinnacle of absurd because of it's monetarist qualities, along with lack of central authority.

Bitcoin is what you want it to be. It's what you make of it. And nothing more.

nwbitcoin

sr. member

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You are a geek if you are too early to the party!

Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 04, 2013, 03:59:39 AM

Who is your mentor?
What books taught you about the "free market"?

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 03, 2013, 06:27:12 AM

...
So, in a true libertarian world, C through to X would have to sell their services to A and B. They would have to convince them both, without using the threat of a big fine or the loss of their liberty, that raising their prices to cover the cost of employing C to X was a price worth paying!
...

Having spent a few years reading different interpretations of free market and trading, (from Adam Smith through to Milton Friedman and the Austrian Types) the above is how I would see that world we have today would have to work, if we didn't have the regulatory system in place that corporatism has given us.

Do you have any objections to it? Please Share!

Bit_Happy

legendary

Activity: 2114

Merit: 1040

A Great Time to Start Something!

Who is your mentor?
What books taught you about the "free market"?

Quote from: nwbitcoin on March 03, 2013, 06:27:12 AM

...
So, in a true libertarian world, C through to X would have to sell their services to A and B. They would have to convince them both, without using the threat of a big fine or the loss of their liberty, that raising their prices to cover the cost of employing C to X was a price worth paying!
...

Topic: Is bitcoin closest to libertarianism? and if it succeeds would it be proof of (Read 1417 times)