Is Bitcoin still experimental? | Bitcointalksearch.org

ABCbits

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Quote from: NotATether on September 30, 2021, 03:13:24 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on September 29, 2021, 05:57:47 AM

P.S. BIP 143 actually use PD license, it's just dumb example.

But you can't sue the author of a public domain work because the author has legally waived all their ownership from it (so there is no warranty that can apply to them in any case).

I know. But in my ~~dumb example~~ fictional scenario, the BIP doesn't have license.

Quote from: a.a on September 30, 2021, 03:28:13 AM

Well, lets say I write a malicious BIP with Copyright to myself, were I propose to store the privatekeys on my private email address. Some on Bitcoin Team think it is very neat solution, and implement it. Now the Network adapts it and now I get the privatekeys. I steal now the privatekeys and make the great fire-sale. Are now the devs my accomplices? Or is my action of stealing the BitCoins the criminal act and the bitcoin devs just negligent?

If someone decide to sue someone & hoping the victim pay the fine (rather than hire a lawyer), they could sue anyone you mentioned.

NotATether

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Quote from: Syke on October 05, 2021, 07:44:42 AM

Quote from: Dabs on September 28, 2021, 03:03:23 PM

You can't sue open source code devs because you should be able to compile it yourself.

Sure you can. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-court-let-craig-wright-194612053.html
Releasing code as open source does not absolve it of other laws, i.e. copyright/trademark/patent/etc. laws.

Except the link you posted isn't about a copyright, trademark, or patent lawsuit, and the legal claims are not about the open source software.

The claims are specifically in the allegation that those devs are stopping Craig Wright from accessing [what he thinks is] his coins.

This is different from an accusation such as: You merged some code that violates my rights (such as a multimedia codec or an algorithm that someone has patents for, or using logos from a parent project that are protected, or contributing reverse engineered code to open-source projects)

Syke

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Quote from: Dabs on September 28, 2021, 03:03:23 PM

You can't sue open source code devs because you should be able to compile it yourself.

Sure you can. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-court-let-craig-wright-194612053.html
Releasing code as open source does not absolve it of other laws, i.e. copyright/trademark/patent/etc. laws.

NotATether

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Quote from: a.a on September 30, 2021, 03:28:13 AM

Well, lets say I write a malicious BIP with Copyright to myself, were I propose to store the privatekeys on my private email address. Some on Bitcoin Team think it is very neat solution, and implement it. Now the Network adapts it and now I get the privatekeys. I steal now the privatekeys and make the great fire-sale. Are now the devs my accomplices? Or is my action of stealing the BitCoins the criminal act and the bitcoin devs just negligent?

It is not a practical scenario. BIPs are peer-reviewed almost as rigorously as academic papers so the chances of anyone with brains (dev or otherwise) of even moving the BIP to the debate stage is zero.

20kevin20

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Quote from: n0nce on September 26, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Even then, you could argue it's still an ongoing experiment (like literally capitalism and communism themselves; both are mass adopted and in a way still experimental).

Let me explain: every time a milestone is reached, like 'legal tender', 'mass adoption', 'global reserve currency', ..., the circumstances are completely changed and we're in a new kind of experiment.

A very interesting food for thought. Yeah, we're definitely going experimental with every single new addition. Anything new could turn into opposition or support from certain parties, and stuff like SegWit is definitely a new atmosphere, a new environment and a new experiment. Thanks for your input. If so, since Bitcoin can be easily changed by just modifying its codelines unlike for example physical materials such as lead or gold, it might in fact be experimental at all times and will be even 100 years from now.

a.a

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Well, lets say I write a malicious BIP with Copyright to myself, were I propose to store the privatekeys on my private email address. Some on Bitcoin Team think it is very neat solution, and implement it. Now the Network adapts it and now I get the privatekeys. I steal now the privatekeys and make the great fire-sale. Are now the devs my accomplices? Or is my action of stealing the BitCoins the criminal act and the bitcoin devs just negligent?

Or in German law, you can not exclude any liability. So for example, you make an online lottery... you can exclude any liability by declaring that you can not sue if you not win. But you can not exclude e.g. the liability for bodily harm, even if it is not in the possibilities to get bodily harmed by a online lottery.

Is Bitcoin money? Or is it something else? Can it be actually stolen?

And last but not least:
Who do you sue, if they(the node owners) disable the whole bitcoin network? Participation in the bitcoin network is not obligatory. So you can not sue anybody if there suddenly a 51% attack is possible and somebody is running the whole bitcoin network on his raspi with McDonalds Wifi.

ABCbits

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Quote from: n0nce on September 28, 2021, 01:26:12 PM

Quote from: ABCbits on September 28, 2021, 05:01:05 AM

But it's more complicated if he meant the protocol (which covered on BIP) rather than implementation. Few BIP use different license (such as BSD, CC or doesn't include license). AFAIK most license prevent developer/author getting sued, but i've no idea what could happen if someone sue author of BIP without license.

I don't see how you'd sue someone for a protocol specification though. Since for losing funds you need to use an implementation of that protocol, and as was mentioned Core implementation is under MIT, so you accept any faults etc. when using Bitcoin Core, even if they're coded to spec. At least that's how it would work in my mind, but I'd like to hear other opinions of course!

Suing someone for ridiculous reason isn't rare occurrence (try searching "ridiculous sue attempt" on google). They're either dumb or exploiting high legal cost (where it's cheaper to pay the fine rather than hire lawyer). Here's dumb example that i could think.

1. User download buggy wallet which generate uncompressed public key for Bech32 address.
2. Sometime after user received some coins, he decide to spend it.
3. User got weird error message that his transaction is invalid.
4. After some research, he found out that his wallet is bugged. However, the ToS explicitly mention the developer can't be sued.
5. User find BIP 143 which state only compressed public key. But he also find that the BIP doesn't have license and decide to sue author of the BIP.

P.S. BIP 143 actually use PD license, it's just dumb example.

NotATether

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Quote from: ABCbits on September 29, 2021, 05:57:47 AM

P.S. BIP 143 actually use PD license, it's just dumb example.

But you can't sue the author of a public domain work because the author has legally waived all their ownership from it (so there is no warranty that can apply to them in any case).

Dabs

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I think you can only sue developers of closed sourced wallets or custodial wallets. You can't sue open source code devs because you should be able to compile it yourself.

Really, people should learn about cold storage and multi-signature wallets no matter how much value they plan to hodl.

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Quote from: ABCbits on September 28, 2021, 05:01:05 AM

Quote from: pooya87 on September 28, 2021, 12:11:32 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on September 27, 2021, 12:04:35 PM

The "This is experimental software" line is probably a disclaimer in order to protect from people suing the developers in case something went wrong and loss of funds happened due a glitch in the code.

You can't sue developers of an application that is released under MIT license if something went wrong because when you started using that software you agreed to accept it "as is" and without warranty of any kind. Whether it is experimental or not has nothing to do with it.

But it's more complicated if he meant the protocol (which covered on BIP) rather than implementation. Few BIP use different license (such as BSD, CC or doesn't include license). AFAIK most license prevent developer/author getting sued, but i've no idea what could happen if someone sue author of BIP without license.

I don't see how you'd sue someone for a protocol specification though. Since for losing funds you need to use an implementation of that protocol, and as was mentioned Core implementation is under MIT, so you accept any faults etc. when using Bitcoin Core, even if they're coded to spec. At least that's how it would work in my mind, but I'd like to hear other opinions of course!

ABCbits

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Quote from: pooya87 on September 28, 2021, 12:11:32 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on September 27, 2021, 12:04:35 PM

The "This is experimental software" line is probably a disclaimer in order to protect from people suing the developers in case something went wrong and loss of funds happened due a glitch in the code.

You can't sue developers of an application that is released under MIT license if something went wrong because when you started using that software you agreed to accept it "as is" and without warranty of any kind. Whether it is experimental or not has nothing to do with it.

But it's more complicated if he meant the protocol (which covered on BIP) rather than implementation. Few BIP use different license (such as BSD, CC or doesn't include license). AFAIK most license prevent developer/author getting sued, but i've no idea what could happen if someone sue author of BIP without license.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Dabs on September 24, 2021, 10:02:30 AM

Give it about another 20 to 50 years. Until then, people will continue to call it experimental. One could say fiat money is experimental and is failing, but it lasted a hundred years. There are plenty of science experiments with people that have been going on for decades.

Good point. Because the Core Developers, and only the Core Developers are in cryptocurrency development for the science. All of the other coins, the shitcoins, are in it for profit. MAYBE EXCEPT for a HANDFUL of altcoins.

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Quote from: takuma sato on September 27, 2021, 12:04:35 PM

The "This is experimental software" line is probably a disclaimer in order to protect from people suing the developers in case something went wrong and loss of funds happened due a glitch in the code.

As said by pooya87 above, once you install it, you agree on the terms written in the MIT License. Although, it is, indeed, a disclaimer. It's telling you that you should be aware and responsible for any actions you take. That it's a new, innovative type of money. Nothing the society had ever seen before.

This experimental line is not going to be removed any time soon.

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Quote from: takuma sato on September 27, 2021, 12:04:35 PM

The "This is experimental software" line is probably a disclaimer in order to protect from people suing the developers in case something went wrong and loss of funds happened due a glitch in the code.

You can't sue developers of an application that is released under MIT license if something went wrong because when you started using that software you agreed to accept it "as is" and without warranty of any kind. Whether it is experimental or not has nothing to do with it.

Quote from: https://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE
SOFTWARE.

takuma sato

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The "This is experimental software" line is probably a disclaimer in order to protect from people suing the developers in case something went wrong and loss of funds happened due a glitch in the code.

n0nce

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Quote from: ABCbits on September 27, 2021, 06:51:15 AM

FYI, you should quote @20kevin20 since he's the one who made the statement (while the other one simply copy/paste his post and add few enter).

Fixed. Wanted to report in the plagiarism thread but you already did Cool

ABCbits

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At least from technology perspective (not social perspective), Bitcoin protocol and few of it's implementation (such as Bitcoin) has been thoughtfully tested and used more than 10 years. I wouldn't use term "experimental" for 10 years old protocol and software.

Quote from: n0nce on September 26, 2021, 10:38:21 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I think only mass adoption would make it non-experimental.

Even then, you could argue it's still an ongoing experiment (like literally capitalism and communism themselves; both are mass adopted and in a way still experimental).

--snip--

FYI, you should quote @20kevin20 since he's the one who made the statement (while the other one simply copy/paste his post and add few enter).

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I've used that term myself on occasion. Call it what you want, but I consider my involvement and interaction with Bitcoin as experimental.

And for as long as there's going to be fresh tech and fresh usage (segwit a few years ago, coinjoin for me a while back too, and Lightning use more recently), constantly evolving entry and exit points (fiat conversion I mean), I daresay those adventures in finding new ways to interact with Bitcoin, very much a huge social and financial experiment.

n0nce

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Quote from: Dabs on September 25, 2021, 10:54:04 PM

Quote from: n0nce on September 24, 2021, 09:11:44 PM

You could even argue capitalism itself is still an ongoing experiment

Right now, it's not going too well in fact, with an ever increasing gap between poor and rich.

We're going a little off topic here, but I'd argue the other one called "communism" is an ongoing experiment with several countries, and almost all of them I would consider to have failed already. The fact that there are poor and rich in capitalist countries reflects on either the people or the circumstances of the people, not the government or the businesses. Lot's of self-made millionaires were born into poor families. Lots of people born rich are now poor. It goes both ways.

I agree; also did not want to go off-topic, just show that almost anything can be called experimental basically... Cheesy

It's hard to define or say if something's 'not experimental anymore'.

Quote from: 20kevin20 on September 23, 2021, 03:07:24 PM

I think only mass adoption would make it non-experimental.

Even then, you could argue it's still an ongoing experiment (like literally capitalism and communism themselves; both are mass adopted and in a way still experimental).

Let me explain: every time a milestone is reached, like 'legal tender', 'mass adoption', 'global reserve currency', ..., the circumstances are completely changed and we're in a new kind of experiment. For example, let's say BTC exited 'experimental' status in El Salvador and it is mass adopted globally, it'll be again experimental, because it's a whole different situation, economy, size, scale, political system and landscape; so it'll be 'experimental' again and it's not guaranteed that it will work globally the exact same way it works in El Salvador.

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Quote from: n0nce on September 24, 2021, 09:11:44 PM

You could even argue capitalism itself is still an ongoing experiment

Right now, it's not going too well in fact, with an ever increasing gap between poor and rich.

We're going a little off topic here, but I'd argue the other one called "communism" is an ongoing experiment with several countries, and almost all of them I would consider to have failed already. The fact that there are poor and rich in capitalist countries reflects on either the people or the circumstances of the people, not the government or the businesses. Lot's of self-made millionaires were born into poor families. Lots of people born rich are now poor. It goes both ways.

Topic: Is Bitcoin still experimental? (Read 445 times)