Is Bitcointalk a place of free and open discussion? - page 6.

achow101

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Just writing some code

Quote from: AgentofCoin on August 09, 2015, 06:25:11 PM

Quote from: achow101 on August 09, 2015, 06:13:42 PM

Well those posts should be considered off topic depending on where they are posted.

Think about it this way, bitcoin is defined by the reference implementation which is currently Bitcoin Core. And discussion of Bitcoin should follow the reference implementation and any proposed changes to it. Thus discussion of the hard fork is allowed. Bitcoin XT on the other hand is neither the reference implementation (so not strictly bitcoin as defined by the reference implementation) and is an alternative client which does not belong in Bitcoin Discussion. Therefore theymos is in the right to move or delete posts about XT if they aren't in the right section. Discussion about the client itself should be in the Alternative Client section while discussion about its protocol might be considered as altcoin discussion. However discussion about how the protocol should be changed on bitcoin that also references xt should be allowed to stay in Bitcoin Discussion or Dev and Tech discussing.

I have a question:
In a purely hypothetical situation, let imagine majority of the Devs have decided to raise the 21 million bitcoin cap to a 42 million cap.
And as so, they all in agreement decide to change the bitcoin protocol and etc and cause a hard fork to enable the new 42 million coin cap.
Now since almost all have agreed and proceeded, the community will most likely have to follow, in theory.

Now in that purely hypothetical situation, Bitcoin Core is no longer actually Bitcoin Core, but Bitcoin Core Version 2.
Would you say that any discussion by the Devs in this forum (which doesn't actually happen usually) about the above situation
be considered "not strictly bitcoin" and "off topic" since it is technically Bitcoin Core Version 2, and thus should not be allowed in this forum, before the hardfork?

I would say that the discussion by the devs would not be considered off topic because they would be either discussing a proposed change to the protocol or discussing a client that has been agreed upon to be the reference implementation (or will become it) even before the hardfork. Of course it would be off topic if the discussion didn't take place in the right section (e.g. dev and tech discussion). Additionally, if the client is being discussed before any such protocol change has been agreed upon and a definitive date given for said change, then it would be "not strictly bitcoin" since it has not yet been determined whether that client will be the reference implementation and the change has not yet been agreed upon.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: HostFat on August 09, 2015, 06:30:59 PM

The problem is that someone is misrepresenting the word "consensus" in the wrong way.
It is used as something where some developers must agree on, when it is NOT.

Consensus has only a technical meaning to say that the majority of the network, nodes and miners, have come to freely agree to use some rules wrote on a client/software.

Who has wrote this client/software is TOTALLY irrelevant.

I do not know if your above statement is in reference to what I wrote, or someone else, since I did not use the term "Consensus".
So I assume it is not, but in the event it is:

I have not heard of any new implementation of the bitcoin protocol being created by anyone other than the Devs.
My understanding is the Devs publish the updates to the protocol and the miners and community agree to use it or not (the Consensus).
But ultimately, the miners and community will use the new over time. There isn't really a choice for them. All will eventually update.

So the statement that the Devs do not follow Consensus may be correct,
but the fact is they come before and proceed the network consensus since they release the new updates.
Network follows the Devs, not the other way. (Atleast that is how I see it.)

Before the "updates/fixes" are released, the Devs agree on what will go into the next version or not.
That is what I was referring to in my question above.

Cubic Earth

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Quote from: Brad Harrison on August 09, 2015, 06:22:00 PM

Well the next couple of weeks are going to be interesting, think about all the Chinese miners if they switch and mine bitcoin XT, bitcoin blockchain will not move for days

They will all be mining the same chain until 75% of blocks have signaled support for the XT rules. If and when there is a greater-than-1MB block, the hashpower supporting the Core chain will only be 25% of what it was moments before, and blocks will only be found every 40 minutes on average. If 95% of hashpower switches, Core blocks will only be found every 3 hours and 20 minutes. If the fork happens to occur right after difficulty adjustment and only 5% of the hashpower remains on the Core chain, there would be 3 hour and 20 minute blocks for 7 months.

HostFat

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I support freedom of choice

The problem is that someone is misrepresenting the word "consensus" in the wrong way.
It is used as something where some developers must agree on, when it is NOT.

Consensus has only a technical meaning to say that the majority of the network, nodes and miners, have come to freely agree to use some rules wrote on a client/software.

Who has wrote this client/software is TOTALLY irrelevant.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: achow101 on August 09, 2015, 06:13:42 PM

Well those posts should be considered off topic depending on where they are posted.

Think about it this way, bitcoin is defined by the reference implementation which is currently Bitcoin Core. And discussion of Bitcoin should follow the reference implementation and any proposed changes to it. Thus discussion of the hard fork is allowed. Bitcoin XT on the other hand is neither the reference implementation (so not strictly bitcoin as defined by the reference implementation) and is an alternative client which does not belong in Bitcoin Discussion. Therefore theymos is in the right to move or delete posts about XT if they aren't in the right section. Discussion about the client itself should be in the Alternative Client section while discussion about its protocol might be considered as altcoin discussion. However discussion about how the protocol should be changed on bitcoin that also references xt should be allowed to stay in Bitcoin Discussion or Dev and Tech discussing.

I have a question:
In a purely hypothetical situation, let imagine majority of the Devs have decided to raise the 21 million bitcoin cap to a 42 million cap.
And as so, they all in agreement decide to change the bitcoin protocol and etc and cause a hard fork to enable the new 42 million coin cap.
Now since almost all have agreed and proceeded, the community will most likely have to follow, in theory.

Now in that purely hypothetical situation, Bitcoin Core is no longer actually Bitcoin Core, but Bitcoin Core Version 2.
Would you say that any discussion by the Devs in this forum (which doesn't actually happen usually) about the above situation
be considered "not strictly bitcoin" and "off topic" since it is technically Bitcoin Core Version 2, and thus should not be allowed in this forum, before the hardfork?

Brad Harrison

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Well the next couple of weeks are going to be interesting, think about all the Chinese miners if they switch and mine bitcoin XT, bitcoin blockchain will not move for days

oblivi

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Quote from: OgNasty on August 09, 2015, 04:46:02 PM

Aren't all altcoin posts usually deleted when they aren't posted in the appropriate place?

What constitutes an altcoin? I think this is obviously more than an altcoin.. the future of Bitcoin itself is on the line. People are going to reach XT one way or another. Im not entirely sure if moving posts from the main board is appropiate.

Quote from: Brad Harrison on August 09, 2015, 06:12:21 PM

So is Bitcoin XT a completely new code of coin or just a fork for bitcoin?

It's a fork.

achow101

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Just writing some code

Well those posts should be considered off topic depending on where they are posted.

Think about it this way, bitcoin is defined by the reference implementation which is currently Bitcoin Core. And discussion of Bitcoin should follow the reference implementation and any proposed changes to it. Thus discussion of the hard fork is allowed. Bitcoin XT on the other hand is neither the reference implementation (so not strictly bitcoin as defined by the reference implementation) and is an alternative client which does not belong in Bitcoin Discussion. Therefore theymos is in the right to move or delete posts about XT if they aren't in the right section. Discussion about the client itself should be in the Alternative Client section while discussion about its protocol might be considered as altcoin discussion. However discussion about how the protocol should be changed on bitcoin that also references xt should be allowed to stay in Bitcoin Discussion or Dev and Tech discussing.

Brad Harrison

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So is Bitcoin XT a completely new code of coin or just a fork for bitcoin?

kevindurant

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What if majority of miners choose Bitcoin XT? What will we do then? My technical knowledge is limited. What else is different other than block size in XT?

RoadTrain

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I think theymos has given a very good explanation, don't think there's anything worth discussing.

Spjuth

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Quote from: coinableS on August 09, 2015, 05:31:07 PM

Is this only on XT's testnet or will we be seeing a forked XT chain soon? If so seems like an unorganized and sloppy way to release it.

XT will not fork the blockchain until a supermajority (75%) of the miners is running XT. So running XT now is no difference to running Core.

coinableS

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Is this only on XT's testnet or will we be seeing a forked XT chain soon? If so seems like an unorganized and sloppy way to release it.

Spjuth

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It's still possible to find the deleted post by googling.
Here is the censored post about XT binaries.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gc742/bitcoinxt_test_binaries_available/

Cubic Earth

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Quote from: OgNasty on August 09, 2015, 05:21:26 PM

I pity the fool that accepts BTC using the Bitcoin XT client (post fork)...

After the fork coins would be stuck on their respective chains. I do look forward to the watching the Core/XT exchange rate. Tell me OgNasty... would you sell all of you XT coins for Core coins at a 1:1 ratio?

OgNasty

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I pity the fool that accepts BTC using the Bitcoin XT client (post fork)...

Cubic Earth

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Quote from: dserrano5 on August 09, 2015, 05:06:48 PM

Quote from: Cubic Earth on August 09, 2015, 04:59:18 PM

Furthermore, Bitcoin Core will only fork away from Bitcoin XT when XT has 75% of the hash power behind it.

The very second a >1Mb block is created by XT, we'll have two different chains. That's a fork in my book.

Yes, I agree. But any block greater than 1Mb would be rejected until XT had 75% hash-power support... a fork is only meaningful to people if there is some appreciable percentage of hash power behind it.

smiletyson

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Quote from: dserrano5 on August 09, 2015, 05:06:48 PM

Quote from: Cubic Earth on August 09, 2015, 04:59:18 PM

Furthermore, Bitcoin Core will only fork away from Bitcoin XT when XT has 75% of the hash power behind it.

The very second a >1Mb block is created by XT, we'll have two different chains. That's a fork in my book.

We'll have 2 different chains how?
Let's imagine the scenario:
%5 of the miners are mining on XT, and %95 of it mines on Core.
XT miners finds a block and adds it into their chain (let's say it's chain A)
Core miners reject that block and finds another one (let's say it's chain B).
How will chain A proceed? Core miners will never give a damn f* about chain A, so There's only 5% of the network mines for it (imagine the difficulty).
Chain B will proceed because it still has 95% of the mining power.

Anyway, if majority of the HR doesn't switch into XT, it'll be fine for Core & Core miners.

iGotSpots

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Quote from: dserrano5 on August 09, 2015, 05:06:48 PM

Quote from: Cubic Earth on August 09, 2015, 04:59:18 PM

Furthermore, Bitcoin Core will only fork away from Bitcoin XT when XT has 75% of the hash power behind it.

The very second a >1Mb block is created by XT, we'll have two different chains. That's a fork in my book.

In anyone's book. As soon as the second prong begins, it's completely different network

dserrano5

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Quote from: Cubic Earth on August 09, 2015, 04:59:18 PM

Furthermore, Bitcoin Core will only fork away from Bitcoin XT when XT has 75% of the hash power behind it.

The very second a >1Mb block is created by XT, we'll have two different chains. That's a fork in my book.

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