Topic: Is forum escrow still safe? (Read 1790 times)

The reply by OgNasty on page one really sums it up. 

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12644929

Use someone with a long history of escrowing successfully, 1 year of experience + thousands of posts + lots of drama and accusations going and coming adds up to hype, not trustworthiness.

With respect to Quickseller's long-winded, unsolicited self-defense post on page one (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12661093), I just want to point out that again and again he suggests that anyone who is rational will agree with him.  His mental model of the world doesn't allow states where he is incorrect and someone else is correct.  Much less the nuanced situations that occur constantly in life where to some extent, many people are correct in conflicting ways.  Even now, he fails to see that he's scammed countless people (well, presumably he knows the count, but we'll never know it) by collecting escrow fees from them without actually providing them an escrow.  He thinks that if you're trading with him, you deserve to pay an extra fee for the comfort his reputation is supposed to give you.  He fails to see that a rational person could actually end up in a dispute with him and that he'd be unable to provide a neutral arbiter in that context.  Alas, so it goes.

If I were going to engage in trading on here, I'd be looking for an escrow with a long history of trading, but also someone who doesn't engage in wars and defamations and accusations and who doesn't have an army of alt-shills to back them up in an argument.  Ie, I'd be looking for someone with a level-head.  You can still find these people on bitcointalk, but quickseller has never been one of them.  The thing about having a level-head is that it doesn't draw much attention, so that kinda person doesn't have 100 accusation threads against them in meta, so that kinda person isn't the first one you think of when you think of forum escrows.   I fully believe that those kinds of people are still around and that careful people can trade here safely.

Yes forum escrow is still safe,if one user missused the escrow then it doesn't means all other escrow are also bad
they are doing great job and helping people complete the trade with safety,there are a many high trusted that you can use for escrow

Big escrows will not scam for a tiny amount, when doing big deals, do them in parts, to prevent a very big loss.
Don't trust an escrow randomly, use an escrow which has done many deals and is very transparent. Always look at the escrows trust before using their service.

And yeah, the escrow list shows very reputable escrows only, so when u trade, pick one of them.

I think it's safe as long is the escrow is mentioned in the daily updated list of the forum and is having huge green trust.
Without escrow it will not be possible to trade on this forum.

While avoiding the philosophical discussion about if lying is bad, even when it is a white lie. I think it is fair to say that if someone is caught lying about not having a piece of gum then the ability to trust them in the future would not be affected.

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If an escrow is caught lying about a minute issue then a rational person would still trust that person with their money if they otherwise would trust them with their money.

QS is telling us he can justify lying to himself - he will not feel bad about lying to us in the future.

That is not a safe forum escrow.  

thats the difference: if you dont want someone to give a piece of gum to: be a man and tell him the reason.

lying is bad. always.
it doesnt help either: not even in the case you mentioned, because he will ask you again...and so you have to keep lying. and if he see you a few minutes later given a gum to a nice girl its much worse for him.

You have never been asked if you have a piece of gum by someone who you did not wish to give away a piece of gum, when you in fact were in possession of a piece of gum?.....

I think lying is lying.  Regardless if you lie about being banned, or if you lie about not being a particular member. (Both which you did)

I suppose only a psychopath would feel that lying is OK....

I think there is a pretty big difference between lying about something that gives you an advantage when you are believed and lying about an immaterial fact when the truth to such fact does not impact the outcome of anything material.

Hi quickseller,

I have heard many people talk about your "escrow for yourself". I think it is bad, i dont know the transaction amounts, but yeah that doesnt really matter, it is the principe. I think you deserve better but the problem is that you have been lying about your ban. Which people will trust someone again who has been lying?

Personally, I don't care if a person has alts.  I care if they LIE about having alts, like Quickseller did.  Quickseller is a liar.

You lie once, how can we trust anything you post ever again?   

As a general rule, I will not leave a positive trust rating for someone who has used my escrow service, an exception being someone who I have escrowed many deals for, allowing me to see that they engage in a practice of honest trading (eg are quick to reply, are quick to ship, keeps the other party informed of the situation).

Also FWIW, I had never left myself a positive trust rating (except for testing purposes that were removed after a few minutes), which for the most part would eliminate any concerns about myself looking more trustworthy then they otherwise might be.

I do agree that interacting with an escrow prior to the trade does allow you to get the feeling as if they can/should be trusted with your money.

QS dint yet scam anyone and hence he as an escrow can still be trusted to an extent. However, escrows need to be polite and professional on this forum rather than feel that they are the higher than the people who are using their services. Some sort of respect and acknowledgement is important which lacks on this forum. Escrowing for an alt is not appreciated at all and even the escrows leaving a rating for the people using their services as it doesn't make the members trustworthy just because they used an escrow. It's still safe to use an escrow who is in DT level 1 but it's still recommended to check their trust list.


That being it, I'm still skeptical on using some reputed escrows as I haven't interacted with them and trusting a person whom I haven't even spoken too is not what I can do. MZ has been the only escrow I've used and since he is from my country, it's easier to deal with him rather than escrows who live outside.

^^this is from a thread the OP made about Vod about a month ago. Not long after the OP created that thread, he did in fact receive a negative rating from Vod (no surprise here) for selling MSDN accounts. However now it appears that this trust rating is gone!

If you look at this thread (archive), you will see that the OP had a thread about selling MSDN accounts, if you look at this post (archive - reply#2), you will see that he sent a PM to someone looking to buy MSDN accounts, and if you look at this (unedited) post (archive - reply #8), you will see that someone posted Vod's trust rating.

The OP apparently started selling MSDN accounts less then 30 days ago, so the removal of Vod's trust rating cannot be explained by the OP stopping selling such accounts and 30 days elapsing.

I would like to inquire as to why exactly Vod's rating was removed from the OP

Why exactly would using a forum escrow not be safe? If you trust someone enough to use them as escrow then there is no rational reason why you would not trust them enough to do a direct trade with that same person, and in a worse case scenario, you would be essentially be sending first to the escrow, and since you would rationally be willing to send first to them (unless you wanted to act irrationally) so you would really not be getting tricked into sending first.

AFAIK, OgNasty is the only escrow who has publicly stated that he will not be a party to any trade that he escrows, so if you wish to be certain that the escrow is not a party to a trade, then you should use his escrow service, although I would not personally feel cheated or betrayed if it turned out that he was a party to a trade of mine that he escrowed. I have traded with OgNasty multiple times, and he was always very quick to ship and was very professional, and I think it is difficult to argue that this is someone that I would not want to be trading with, regardless of the handle I am messaging -- this really does not mater however because OgNasty does not act as escrow for deals he is a party to.

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Most of my negative trust ratings are based on misinformation and/or are emotionally charged statements and/or are based on things unrelated to my escrowing my own deals.

Mitchell - I had spoken to him about his rating, and he told me that it was primarily because of the fact that I lied about being banned. He originally told me that he will eventually edit it to a neutral rating and has since followed through in doing so.

DiamondCardz - His trust rating seems to echo Mitchell's rating. I would assume that he is reasonable and will eventually update it to a neutral rating. I will probably eventually message him about his rating to discuss it, and based on the assumption that he is a reasonable person, I believe that he will either remove it or update it to a neutral.

Vod - Martain is upset that my actions represent something that makes it more difficult for Vod to force people to act in specific ways, and to listen to him. Vod's trust rating is only the latest (it is actually no longer the latest) of a long list of negative trust ratings that were left for personal reasons.

jonald_fyookball - Another emotionally charged trust rating. I am really not entirely sure why he was ever put on DefaultTrust.

cryptodevil - He is just one of multiple shills on dooglus's trust list. I would not be surprised if he turns out to be another scammer who is currently on dooglus's trust list. Regardless, his rating was pretty clearly the result of my speaking out against dooglus

John (John K.) - it appears that his rating is based on some amount of misinformation (at least based on his trust comment). I will probably eventually send him a message clarifying the situation, and based on the assumption that he is a reasonable person, I would say that he will either remove it or update it to a neutral.

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I have a solid trading history, and a history of providing an escrow service that my customers have publicly stated they are/were very satisfied with. When terms of a trade that I am asked to escrow would make it impossible to mediate a dispute, I recommend alternate terms that would protect both parties, and would have a high likelihood of being able to resolve a dispute in a fair manor, and when such terms (or other terms that would allow a dispute to be mediated using facts that I can personally verify) are not agreed to then I will decline to escrow a transaction. If the terms of a trade put excessive risk on one party (eg when the instant release of bitcoin would be done after the other party will be receiving a clearly reversible payment), then I will most often explain such risks and suggest alternate terms to somewhat reduce the risk to the party taking the excessive risks. I have been trusted with large amounts of money (both while escrowing and when trading) (amounts that are greater then the aggregate value of trades that many/most people engage in over a year)multiple times, and every time I have been trust with large amounts of money, I have showed that it was appropriate to give me such trust (and the same is true when I have been trusted with smaller amounts of money). 

Over the last ~year, I have helped countless people protect themselves against getting scammed, have warned the community about countless numbers of scams, have given countless number of people advice regarding their trading practice, regarding their (giving) trust practices, among other things. Anyone that wants to speak ill of me is really only going to end up embarrassing themselves.

I wouldn't put all the emphasis on this. And you're not really covered -- you'll probably find that most people that get scammed in this context don't pursue the matter in court.

Just something to consider. First and foremost, reputation is paramount.

The point I am making is this: Can an escrow be tied to a legitimate business, a physical address, a web site? Do other trusted members claim to know this person's identity outside of the forum? Are they doxxable? Or is it someone who only transacts in areas where they can remain fully anonymous (digital goods trades, or with P.O. boxes for physical trades)? If the latter, regarding someone who has gained a significant reputation over a short period (trust farming), red flags go off. That tells me someone may be planning a long con, and their complete anonymity is further incentive to exploit the high level of trust they have.

It's just a base-level incentive analysis. If you're going to scam, are you likely to use contact information/websites/services/businesses that can be tied to your real identity? It's not about stating who you are; it's about whether or not we can analyze your past business dealings to verify who you are. Scammers make efforts to cover their tracks the best they can. The sloppy ones aren't careful early on (when they weren't intent on scamming). The smarter ones know what they are doing from the start, and never release any information that can tie them to a real identity.

one or two instances of something shady happening with escrow service providers is in no way representative of everyone involved in escrowing.

All of the "big 5" escrows are anonymous to my knowledge. Forum rank does not mean much - just look at current feedback and make sure they are trust worthy.

A good point about escrow anonymity. I see it now. There is a list of escrows who are not fully anonymous?
And you can know their full name, address and if something went wrong you are covered?

And thank goodness for that. I commend the community for recognizing that his behavior was very untrustworthy, and deserving of the inability to provide escrow services.


Simply having alt accounts isn't the issue.

Escrowing deals as one of the interested parties under the pretense of being a disinterested third party is deceptive and fraudulent. And at the least, the other party involved was swindled out of the escrow fee in each instance.

Further, QS was caught using alt accounts to shill, farm trust and otherwise abuse the trust system (e.g. using multiple accounts to neg trust people). Is this how a trustworthy person acts?

On that subject, John K's feedback says it best. He was "engaging in self-collusion by the means of using alt accounts in order present a facade of trust in his business dealings." Now, why would one want to do that?

There was a reason QS was so intent on maintaining his own anonymity (a point to consider when choosing an escrow). I'll just leave this here.

I guess the simplest answer to your question would be "It's as safe as it's ever been", and if you think it was safe at one-point then it probably remains true to this day. Whenever you are trusting an unidentified 3rd party with your money, goods, account , etc. - you are risking losing it, every single time. You have been warned, but there are some old-friendly faces around here that have already been mentioned .

OgNasty isn't too bad of an escrow himself. But yeah, people like SebastianJu/OgNasty who have over an year of forum trading without any real issues are preferable as an escrow.

It's definitely still safe.

An escrow is never a 100% safe, but some trusted escrow that is on the default trust, that will not scam for low amount trades, but if you want big transaction/exchange, then it is the best to do a meetup and not an online deal..

You really shouldn't trust someone merely based on his forum rank - accounts get bought and sold with some frequency around here, although higher ranks less frequently so.

By the way, it's way past time for you to update yourself... I recommend Firefox.

I think Legendary Escrows are still safe.

I couldn't agree more.
QS may have done something "bad", but it surely didn't result in a loss for anyone but himself.

No system is perfect idyu; there will always be users taking advantage of whatever they can, whenever they can.

With that in mind, of course you should still use escrow, when the situation calls for it - it does add an extra layer of security, when the system is working well (which has been the case, for the most part), and there might be ways to help avoid some of the problems when it isn't, such as, for example, opening the whole process, as much as possible, to public scrutiny.

I'm sure QS will hop in here whenever s/he's around and give a good explanation about why this thread is silly, but I'll go ahead and put my two-cents in as well.
Depending on what you mean by "safe", yes it is entirely safe because to my knowledge no deal that was escrow'd by QS or his alts was botched and no 3rd party was disappointed with the service.

Just because escrows have alts doesn't mean they're not trustworthy.

Use a trusted escrow.  Quickseller was barely a member for a year here, if that, before he started offering escrow services.  Do your homework and find a trusted escrow who has been operating for several years on these forums without any issues and you'll be fine.  You can start here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/legendary-bitcoin-escrow-service-more-than-19k-btc-transferred-alts-too-303281

QuickSeller recently got negative feedback, and recently defcon23 has ?? ? (1 negative feedback)
For others as far as i see all are good enough and you can deal.
Check the top5 https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcointalk-escrows-trade-safely-855778 and others who are online pm them.

There are many reputable escrow services on the forums. Just search for them on the Services section.

After the Quickseller story i wonder if its still safe or should i ask is there any sense to use forum escrow or not ?