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Topic: Is it possible for us to get the price back up - page 2. (Read 4730 times)

legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.


ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.

that would be illegal.

 
legendary
Activity: 2198
Merit: 1311
Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.


ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours

Or, if you'd rather not endure the wait time to wire $1 million to MtGox you can go down to the bank, take out $1 million, and then light it on fire.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.


ya sure dump 1 million $ into the market.... watch it go up to 15$ and then back down to 3$ in less then 2 hours
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Firstbits: 12pqwk
Many people has the ability to easily bring back the price to $15-$30 range.

You just gotta talk to the right person.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
that amount of money wouldn't be so influential if the market cap of all BTC was $170 million instead of $17 million.

Sure it would.  In a thin market, someone with 0.1% of all BTC could crash it from $30 to $3 just as easily as from $3 to $0.30.

I want to see 5% market depths.  Then we can talk about needing more price...  But we won't need to, because the price will rise naturally.

... This is kind of inspiring me to create another price model based on market depth.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
most of them aren't available on market at all.

That, not the price, is the problem IMO.  Too many people desperately clinging to their brick in the pyramid and hoping to get rich; not enough people creating commerce.  The price declining toward fundamentals is slowly correcting that problem.  We don't need "most" (or even double digit percentages) of the coins to be on the market, but the current miniscule fraction is unreasonably low.

I'll just leave it at that since my thoughts on Bitcoin's broken economics are (and belong) in other threads.

Yes, with such small Bitcoin value it's simply impossible to transfer some amounts. .... NOT big enough to be interesting enough for business as transaction network.

My business can't happen in BTC until there's liquidity for transactions of tens of thousands of USD, or better, enough value stability that I can just hold the BTC.

... But again, I need market depth.  High prices alone don't provide depth unless they're backed by commerce.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1097
Yes, with such small Bitcoin value it's simply impossible to transfer some amounts. Currently Bitcoin is big enough to buy alpaca socks or play poker, but NOT big enough to be interesting enough for business as transaction network. Which is making me sad because I spent a lot time on preparing my business.

Edit: I'm writing this for all those guys which are happy for falling price, because "it will be chaper to buy coins". But there are some serious troubles with *such* low price.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1036
The only problem with a low Bitcoin value is it makes the price more easily volatile, buy $200,000 of Bitcoins now and you can get 1% of all bitcoins in existence (or sell $100,000 worth to drop the value of bitcoins 20% in two minutes.) that amount of money wouldn't be so influential if the market cap of all BTC was $170 million instead of $17 million.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1097
I just want it to fall naturally until commerce raises it again.

...but with such tiny market cap commerce probably will never come. Currently all bitcoins are less than 17 mil USD; and most of them aren't available on market at all. At this moment I cannot imagine that some real business will come to bitcoin world, unfortunately, because every single order can move a market. For example today's "huge drop" was only 150k$, which is *nothing* for real commerce!

I'm talking about some specific business which I'm working on. However, with price declining, I probably need to review my ideas, because this business need much higher market prices to not be price maker itself by its usd->btc->usd conversions.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
I do not think that a high exchange rate that has to be propped up would contribute to stability.

You kind of implied it when you said "A higher price would mean generally lower volatility" in a thread about getting the price back up.  Sorry for the rant if that's not what you meant.  Smiley

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Nor do I think that stability can be accomplished by an artificially suppressed price.

Nor am I advocating an artificially suppressed price.  I just want it to fall naturally until commerce raises it again.

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There is no case that can be made to say that a market which is orders of magnitude smaller is a meaningful participant in the larger economy.

True, but the Bitcoin economy can be one or two orders of magnitude larger than it is now (along with 1-2 orders of market depth, and 1-2 orders of stability) without raising the price.

Again what you're saying isn't wrong.  It's just that you're implying that you want the price higher when really you want a large economy (which happens to cause a high price).
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
Yes, actually it does. If, for instance a large volume of trading were done with goods of any manner that had a fairly stable value denominated in the US Dollar then Bitcoin would become correlated with the Dollar, and this would make the exchange rate with the Dollar more stable. This is what everyone has been saying, including you, but in different terms.

Last time before I drop it:  A large volume of goods trading integrates Bitcoin into a larger economy.  This causes: 1) correlations; 2) stability.  It does not cause correlations which in turn cause stability.  The correlations are just the consequence of being part of a larger economy.


But this does not solve the problem of market depth on its own. A low price would demand a relatively large exchange trade volume to prevent a liquidity crisis in the event of a large buy/sell. As long as the exchange rate remains at a low level the utility of Bitcoin remains limited to small purchases. As soon as a largish exchange has to be made to execute a purchase of some sort then the price will swing all over the place. The likelihood of this happening with a high exchange rate is lower than with a low exchange rate. Apples to apples, a high exchange rate will have less volatility than a low exchange rate.

I agree with everything you say here.  I disagree that propping the price up helps liquidity.  Unless it's backed by large amounts of commerce (and therefore trade volume), it's just a high price in a thin market, and therefore subject to high volatility...  Even worse than a low price, since a propped up price drops whenever the fleeting interests of the price-proppers changes.

The high price is an effect, not a cause.  You have to create the root cause: commerce, which creates volume, which creates depth, which creates stability.  Note that "price" isn't in that chain: it's a sibling of volume, an effect of commerce; artificially recreating a correlated sibling effect (high price) does not magically recreate their common cause.

It's like saying that land with lots of wildflowers makes a good place to grow crops.  Sure, they correlate - because they have good soil, rain, and sunlight.  But planting flowers everywhere doesn't make the land good for farming.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
Holy bit, we're going into the Dark Ages. What the hell will happen to bitcoin? Will it go underground?
Gladly, no. Bitcoin is still just as epic as it ever was. Those who understand that are not going anywhere regardless of where the price goes. What will happen is that more miners and speculators quit and the people who remain will continue to develop Bitcoin further. It can also be summarized as early adoption part 2. Not that it'll be like it was for the first pioneers but it'll be close enough.

I don't really think the community has much use for people who think that the usefulness of Bitcoin is dependent on positive price development. With this I don't mean that a constantly crashing price isn't a bad thing, it definitely is. Bitcoin needs a real bottom and a new start. I don't care if it takes 2 months, 6 months or 2 years before the price starts going back up, what we need is a real bottom. Bitcoin needs it desperately and has needed for a while now.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001
Holy bit, we're going into the Dark Ages. What the hell will happen to bitcoin? Will it go underground?
legendary
Activity: 2100
Merit: 1000
be careful not to get cut by the falling bitcoin knife
hero member
Activity: 482
Merit: 500
I'm wondering if it's possible for us to get the price down below $2.00 instead. Whoever dropped all those coins yesterday got us close, but it looks like we're climbing back up -- albeit slowly. Everyone is a little sketchy right now, and all it would take is a couple thousand BTC to drop us over $0.20. Looking at the live view, there's more pressure right now for the price to continue to drop, and I'd guess that we'll see a real test of the $2.04 low from last month some time in the next week. The real question is what will happen after we test the low value: do we go back to $3 again, or do we stick at $2 this time? I think I'll put my but-back-in price at under $2 this time, just to be safe. :-)
hero member
Activity: 774
Merit: 500
Look ARROUND!
Is it possible for us to work together to get the price back up to about 15-30?
Legally that is.

So how much have you lost?
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
Commodities and stocks correlate to each other when they have broad use and relevancy to each other.  Gold, oil and USD have some well known correlations because people are trading huge volumes of each to a practical end.

Bitcoin would correlate to oil if people started buying oil in BTC.  That (and a hundred other similar things happening; you can't have one alone) would also correlate to a great deal of stability in BTC because that would be an enormous growth of the BTC economy.

That doesn't mean the price correlation CAUSES BTC to stabilize.  You're mixing up cause and effect.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
If you get more buyers the price goes up; if you get more sellers, the price goes down; if you get more buyers AND sellers, the market depth goes up regardless of the price.

I'm not sure how any of that relates to the known number of coins.  We know exactly how many shares there are of GOOG.  So what?
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
Higher prices don't create stability.  Market depth does.  $100k of market depth at $100 isn't any more stable than $100k of market depth at $1.

Bitcoin's instability in the early days of trading was due to price discovery in a brand new market with very shallow depths.  In the grand scheme, these are still the very early days, and we're still doing initial discovery.

It's just my opinion and hope that the market will eventually discover fundamentals.  Smiley
donator
Activity: 392
Merit: 252
Is it possible for us to work together to get the price back up to about 15-30?
Legally that is.

I think you're well meaning, but why would we want the price to be 15-30? There's no fundamentals to support that price. I (and others) would like to see $1 - $1.50 and slow growth from there, which includes real commerce and not just speculation.

-Jonathan

I just liked it higher from a financial standpoint on my end. But why is that though? Why have it lower?

What's the difference between 10 bitcoins for $2.50 and 1 bitcoin for $25 when it comes to trading / speculating? You like it higher from a financial standpoint because you purchased bitcoin at $15, or because you're emotionally driven by a higher, more volatile price?

So instead of 1000 bitcoins at $15, now you hold/trade/speculate with 6000 bitcoins at $2.5 ...

-Jon

In fact, the period of highest volatility was when price was between $.067 and $.30

A higher price would mean generally lower volatility. Market depth will have to be many multiples what it is today to achieve a modicum of stability, this is not going to happen as long as Bitcoin is below $50.

We're all entitled to our own opinions. While you may be correct, a value of $50 will require 50 - 100x the current use by merchants. I guess we're  a ways away from stability, then.

-Jonathan
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