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Topic: Is it true that the Fed is privately owned - page 8. (Read 9428 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
And when I hear about the envisioned ideals of a lot of AnCaps within the bitcoin community, what I hear is exactly what Marx described as the 'capitalist phase'. Although a lot of AnCaps don't seem to realise this, of course...
So, in a pure capitalist society, who would be exploited, and how?

The working class.
Wouldn't they more accurately be described as exploiting the entrepreneurs? After all, the workers don't have to buy the equipment they use, or pay for the space in which they work, or take the risk that all the money they spent in developing the product would be for nothing, if the public doesn't want it. If the company they work for goes bust, they can just get a new job. The entrepreneur is out a lot of money.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
And when I hear about the envisioned ideals of a lot of AnCaps within the bitcoin community, what I hear is exactly what Marx described as the 'capitalist phase'. Although a lot of AnCaps don't seem to realise this, of course...
So, in a pure capitalist society, who would be exploited, and how?

People with access to capital would exploit those in need of it; until an equilibrium had been reached (this equilibrium could be in the form of unions, or mechanisation and the resulting balance would be one between cost of production and consumption of production.)

At some point the relationship would change from parasitic to co dependant (same as biological evolution), this is the shift Marx predicted would happen in the most industrialise and civilised states. 

Ironically now we are being exploited through the likes of the capital behind the central banks, not the entrepreneurs or the typical capitalist Marx envisioned.

Marx thought through the free market a little further than Adam Smith, where Adam Smith saw the result of land lords exploiting there tenants as the mechanism to fuel homesteaders he stopped. I suspect he never questions humanity developing the whole world (or the possibility of continued exponential growth of the humans.) Marx on the other hand saw a point where access to land was one mechanism where the capitalists could keep the parasitic relationship between capital and labour alive.

Ironically Marx advocated the Central Bank model now being used to perpetuate the parasitic imbalance he sorts to expose and overcome.     

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
And when I hear about the envisioned ideals of a lot of AnCaps within the bitcoin community, what I hear is exactly what Marx described as the 'capitalist phase'. Although a lot of AnCaps don't seem to realise this, of course...
So, in a pure capitalist society, who would be exploited, and how?

The working class. As to how, I suggest you read it yourself.

This is a fairly accurat abstract, I guess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx#Economy.2C_history_and_society
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
And when I hear about the envisioned ideals of a lot of AnCaps within the bitcoin community, what I hear is exactly what Marx described as the 'capitalist phase'. Although a lot of AnCaps don't seem to realise this, of course...
So, in a pure capitalist society, who would be exploited, and how?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
3) If you think of the New World in Historical terms, the world that materialised out of the monarchies and dynasties of Europe and Asia, then America and Australia are classic examples of the New World.  The reins of powered are very much rooted in the central banks of the world.  We are living in the New World now it isn't a conspiracy, the next world order "the conspiracy theories hype" won't be calling it the new world order, it'll have a new name. We are in the New World now, and it has an Order to it that isn't working to the benefit of the people, and can't be changed through democratic processes, so no need to call it conspiracy, it is fact. 
Not to feed into conspiracies but it is not (new world) order but rather new (world order). A change in the way the world is run.
The point is the same. It's not a conspiracy, it's just plain facts. The world is being run by an international oligarchy.

I know what you mean.  I spent time in Singapore and London - the class of people who live at the top there have no country or race.  They have billions in capital and are free to live off their investments close to tax free while their maids pay taxes.

Question is; isn't that how capitalism is meant to work?  People who inherit capital live tax free off investments.  Their investments create jobs for the peons.  The peon's salaries create demand for products which leads to economic growth.  All seems to be working as planned.

Yes. it's exactly what Marx predicted would happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx#Economy.2C_history_and_society

Marx got a lot right in terms of analysis.  Its the politics he got wrong - he didn't expect the middle class to split and the working class to join in the split endlessly voting in alternative middle class parties.

Yeah, contrary to popular belief (especially within the US) it's pretty much accepted within the academic world that Marx' theory on economics and scarsity was right. Just like those of Adam Smith and Malthus were probably right. Three models, moreover, that are in fact not contradictory, but can supplement each other. Again, contrary to popular belief.

I don't think Marx mentioned a middle class at all though, did he? (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

You could of course argue that this makes him wrong on the politics, which might indeed be the case.

Alternatively however, you could argue that his original theory is simply still in the works. The middle class seems to be disappearing if we carry on like we are doing right now. And when I hear about the envisioned ideals of a lot of AnCaps within the bitcoin community, what I hear is exactly what Marx described as the 'capitalist phase'. Although a lot of AnCaps don't seem to realise this, of course...
legendary
Activity: 1988
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Beyond Imagination
In china, the central bank is totally controlled by the government, that is for sure  Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 42
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omg totally
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
It's a hybrid setup. It is a cartel of private banks in partnership with the gov so that it has the force of law protecting their monopoly to create the base money for the nation's money supply. Ben Bernanke is its mouthpiece. The government hangs off its jocksack. The US military is one arm, DOH the other. It's asshole is where the money gushes out on top of us. It's dick is in our ass. Its eardrums were designed by the NSA. Its toes are testing the waters of world domination. It has horns coming out of its head. A cavity search might reveal a giant gold nugget. It smells like 3 day old pee. Its brain is composed of unknown material. Certain very few members of congress try to beat it down, but their blows just glance harmlessly, frustrating them. Its a one trick pony. It smokes a cigar every month lit with an 84 billion dollar bill. This cigar smoke causes much pollution and harm. It speaks gibberish. It does NOT have have tofu the size of texas.

But apart from that, you love it, right?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
It's a hybrid setup. It is a cartel of private banks in partnership with the gov so that it has the force of law protecting their monopoly to create the base money for the nation's money supply. Ben Bernanke is its mouthpiece. The government hangs off its jocksack. The US military is one arm, DOH the other. It's asshole is where the money gushes out on top of us. It's dick is in our ass. Its eardrums were designed by the NSA. Its toes are testing the waters of world domination. It has horns coming out of its head. A cavity search might reveal a giant gold nugget. It smells like 3 day old pee. Its brain is composed of unknown material. Certain very few members of congress try to beat it down, but their blows just glance harmlessly, frustrating them. Its a one trick pony. It smokes a cigar every month lit with an 84 billion dollar bill. This cigar smoke causes much pollution and harm. It speaks gibberish. It does NOT have have tofu the size of texas.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Its a very difficult question to answer. The true answer is that almost no companies are really privately owned in the united states. Basically only drug dealers  Tongue.

what we are really dealing with here is a sliding scale between more government influence is less government influence. The federal reserve is about as far along this scale as you can travel without being considered a fully governmental agency.

I'd actually argue that drug dealers have a higher chance of being "controlled" by the government than the Fed does. Mostly because the drug dealers (usually) can't afford to buy politicians.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Its a very difficult question to answer. The true answer is that almost no companies are really privately owned in the united states. Basically only drug dealers  Tongue.

what we are really dealing with here is a sliding scale between more government influence is less government influence. The federal reserve is about as far along this scale as you can travel without being considered a fully governmental agency.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Here's a pretty good explanation of the whole matter of the FED, its origins, etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF0-Pm1Q-nM
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
Mine came over with men with pointy sticks on horses, killed anyone who disagreed and the 1% still has the families who took the land in 1066.  They didn't leave a mission statement.
Maybe you could learn a lesson from mine, then? Wink

They did, that's why the French revolution didn't spared to Brittan, and that is why we have pseudo democratic governments controlled by Oligarchs today.   

Like they kept the monarchy, they will keep a token parliamentary democracy for tourists to visit after things change.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Mine came over with men with pointy sticks on horses, killed anyone who disagreed and the 1% still has the families who took the land in 1066.  They didn't leave a mission statement.
Maybe you could learn a lesson from mine, then? Wink
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
Governments do not exist to provide services to their citizens. They exist because their citizens want a safe environment with clear laws and will use violence to ensure they get that.  It's not a service - you can't decide that you don't want it.
I respectfully disagree, as did several gentlemen some 230-odd years ago:
Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

That "safe environment" is the service which governments ostensibly exist to provide.

I don't know about yours, but mine put it in their "mission statement":
Quote
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Mine came over with men with pointy sticks on horses, killed anyone who disagreed and the 1% still has the families who took the land in 1066.  They didn't leave a mission statement.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
The point is the same. It's not a conspiracy, it's just plain facts. The world is being run by an international oligarchy.

Myrkul = Illuminati stooge trying to cover the conspiracy up.

We know your game Myrkul!

It's the other way around; it is the play on word that is causing people to believe it is so farfetched it is a crazy conspiracy.

Like the anti globalisation movement, actually they are a globalisation movement they are people who are globally conscious and want to be globally responsible, they protest to stop the exploitation and poverty causing actions of a few oligarchs, but the media has them confused, they actually portray them as anti globalisation when they are protesting against global exploitation. 
 
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 502
3) If you think of the New World in Historical terms, the world that materialised out of the monarchies and dynasties of Europe and Asia, then America and Australia are classic examples of the New World.  The reins of powered are very much rooted in the central banks of the world.  We are living in the New World now it isn't a conspiracy, the next world order "the conspiracy theories hype" won't be calling it the new world order, it'll have a new name. We are in the New World now, and it has an Order to it that isn't working to the benefit of the people, and can't be changed through democratic processes, so no need to call it conspiracy, it is fact. 
Not to feed into conspiracies but it is not (new world) order but rather new (world order). A change in the way the world is run.
The point is the same. It's not a conspiracy, it's just plain facts. The world is being run by an international oligarchy.

Myrkul = Illuminati stooge trying to cover the conspiracy up.

We know your game Myrkul!
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
Question is; isn't that how capitalism is meant to work? 

If the "capital" in capitalism is referring to Money (capital) that is created out of thin air then yes this is how it works, and you are being naive, thinking the system is creating wealth.

But if it is the right to pool capital in a free market you are referring to then No, it is not meant to have a central controlling oligopoly.  

The Cantillon Effect is a 17th century principal that explains how wealth is extracted from the last spenders of money (the pour) and transferred to the creators of money (the "oligarchs") and how the benefits trickle up relative to your relation to the top,  this principle alone explains how the system is failing humanity globally.  

The benefits enjoyed today are enjoined as a result of human ingenuity and the little bit of the free market that still exists, despite the system we have in place today.  
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Governments do not exist to provide services to their citizens. They exist because their citizens want a safe environment with clear laws and will use violence to ensure they get that.  It's not a service - you can't decide that you don't want it.
I respectfully disagree, as did several gentlemen some 230-odd years ago:
Quote
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it,

That "safe environment" is the service which governments ostensibly exist to provide.

I don't know about yours, but mine put it in their "mission statement":
Quote
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
The disadvantage of anarchy is that guns are the only way to settle these disputes.
I suppose that's why McDonalds and Burger King employees are always shooting each other? Or Brinks and ADT?
No reason to change the subject.
I'm not. You said that guns are the only way to settle disputes. That's clearly false.
You are being silly now comparing political disputes in an anarchy with selling burgers. 
Governments exist to provide certain services to their citizens. Restaurants exist to provide certain products to their customers. The differences in which services or products should be provided do not need to be decided with guns in either case, and to think so is silly.

Governments do not exist to provide services to their citizens. They exist because their citizens want a safe environment with clear laws and will use violence to ensure they get that.  It's not a service - you can't decide that you don't want it.
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