Topic: Is it worth hosting a lightning node? - page 2. (Read 887 times)

Uh-oh, it's time for franky1 to break out the ascii-technobabble, for those occasions when his standard nonsense just won't quite cut it. 

He'd be dangerous if he had the slightest clue what he was talking about.   

ETFbitcoin: earn more by charging more..(facepalm)

yea seems very elementary school economics.. but

if other routes are charging less. people just wont use your route. meaning you end up getting less/nothing
because your just too expensive

imagine A wants to pay J 10 hops away

all a person has to do is strategically place himself with just a couple channels
EG                 5
          /-------Z-------\  
      A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J
         1  1 1  1 1 1  1 1
now it doesnt matter if independant node D wants to try to earn more by upping his fee above 1
now it doesnt matter if D wants to just earn loyalty and reputation by downing to 0 fee

A will still prefer 5sat A-B-Z-I-J .. compared to 7-8-9 sat abcdefghij(depending on what D charges)

oh and one more trick
Z does not actually have to be another channel linked between B and I
by owning both B and I the user can just manage B and I and just move funds from I<>J's promisory contract as soon as A moves funds from A<>B
 
yep Z is not a real channel just a person charging 5sat to aggregate A<>B I<>J funds


imagine it like this

A    K               I
  \  /                 \  
   B        E    G    J
  /  \     /  \  / \  /
L    C--D   F    H

B doesnt need a direct channel B to I. he can aggregate separetly with no routing
he can also up the fee through B-C to make it less appealing to go BCDFGHJ
another trick is jsut to fake that B-C has no spare fund capacity. thus just rule out a BCDEFGHJ route

Any stats about your default routing fees or total routed transaction? I believe you could earn a bit more if you set routing fees slightly higher than default.

Feel free to disagree, you would be wrong.
Miners have been excluded by Fincern.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/fincen-issues-money-services-businesses-msb-guidance-bitcoin-miners-investors-and-so

*Notice , not for benefit of any other person.

However LN Nodes are acting as exchangers not miners.
https://bitaml.com/cryptocurrency-msb/
According to Fincern guidelines Exchangers are Money Transmitters,

so LN nodes operators are screwed if they don't follow AML/KYC regulations.

---

*Notice 1 big player running an LN node also follow strict AML/KYC
https://cryptoslate.com/bitfinex-becomes-the-first-crypto-exchange-to-add-support-for-the-lightning-network/
Bitfinex becomes the first exchange to support the Lightning Network

https://support.bitfinex.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003360454-Account-Verification-Corporate-

Now ask yourself , how are you going to afford the liquidity and the technical resources to compete ,
plus the legal resources to maintain compliance.
Answer unless you have the resources of a bank , you are not going too.  
Class dismissed.    

I see you guys have a theoretical discussion, and i'm not really interested in trying to actively promote nor discourage the lightning network... I'm merely interested in testing out this stuff... And i don't mind sharing my stats:


I don't quite remember when i started running a lightning node, but it was before there were any good explorers available... Defenately > 1 year ago.
So, less than 100 sat/year...

You do need to run a full node, and c-lightning on top... So you need a semi-decent server for this, defenately not worth your time or energy bill... But if you run a node anyways, i don't see a problem with running a lightning node on top of it aswell...

In theory, Lightning transactions can/might, not will, become slightly more expensive than altcoins because node operators are "staking" working capital in payment channels. I believe most of them should expect some returns by setting fees slightly higher, and the more of their capital they're staking, of course, the more they expect to see returns. No one will lock working capital in payment channels altruistically forever in my opinion.

Plus there's some level of specialization/work in balancing channels.

Good one, but it won't matter at all.

LN node operators are transferring value , that is all it takes for Fincern to go after them.  

IE: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/new-gift-card-rules-fincen

Stupid_Fury, where is your LN Node?  
Can't afford the liquidity to run one can you,
be sure and thank blockstream for making sure you never earn anything running an LN hub.

Answer to why the FBI has not kicked down those doors yet, follows,
Go back to your crayons , you won't understand anyway.
* Note:  Stupid_fury can't actually draw, the dufus eats the crayons.   *

---

Their is the answer, most people are not earning a profit high enough to matter.
Posers that earn less the $600 per year , are not worth anyone's time.
Now once anyone starts making $10000 per week or per year, their ass is grass, if they are not following AML/KYC laws.

Poor Dummies that never earn $ are safe , but also just wasting their time.
Actually earn some Bang$ and you will get that knock at the door.  

---

FYI:
How The Banks Bought Bitcoin | Lightning Network
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g

Yes i see your point. Thats the paradox of the situation i guess. Such low fees discourage people from hosting and expanding it

The lightning node is the fastest one out there and therefore if you are thinking of doing it you should actually consider these two things :

1. Fee is very less
2. Applications are actually more in day to day routine.

Even though the fee of the lightning network is very low , for example if a cafe runs and accepts Bitcoins , they would use the lightning network , so even if 100 customers come , you will maximum earn very little. It can be taken as a means to help Bitcoins and make them more acceptable to general public.

But then again Lightning network is not considered as safe as the Blockchain .


https://medium.com/suredbits/lightning-101-why-is-the-lightning-network-secure-cc1093e392d4
^ This actually contains all the information about the lightning network if you want to know .

Hahaha. OR if FBI agents get sore feet by kicking down thousands of doors one-by-one just to "kill" the Lightning  Network, https://1ml.com/statistics

Do FBI agents fly to other countries? The troll isn't good in disinformation/gaslighting.

Run one and find out.

But don't be surprised when the feds kick down your door and charge you as a money launder.

Anyone with half a brain (this leaves out stupid_fury) knows LN will require a license.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/coingeek-delves-into-what-fincens-new-guidelines-mean-for-dapps-lightning-network-and-privacy-coins-300848137.html


And if you are one of those that think no one using bitcoin can be charged as a money launder.
https://www.coindesk.com/arizona-bitcoin-trader-charged-money-laundering
Update your knowledge base.  


FYI:
Be sure and tell the Feds when they arrest you, you thought it was completely legal because an idiot called stupid_fury in a bitcoin nutjob forum told you it was. Be sure to remember their facial expressions as they lock your ass up.
And Stupid_Fury will later claim he did no such thing.  
*Notice Stupid_Fury can't point you to his LN hub.*

Since LN designed specifically for micro-transaction, i would be surprised if FBI agent kicking door of node operator who routed few transaction with very low Bitcoin amount where the node operator only earn few satoshi.

Tell the troll, there are more than 5,000 nodes running in LN, the network is growing, channels are multiplying, network capacity is 976.61 coins total, more than during 2019, not one FBI agent kicking a door.

I believe section 230 of the communications decency act would protect any LN node operator. This however is not legal advice, and should not be relied upon as such.

LN node operators are also not selling coin to third parties by virtue of their operating a LN node.

There's no "I don't think", because there IS NO REASON that Lightning was designed for banks in mind. Laughable. The trolls believe they can gaslight everyone by simply repeating false statements.

I don't think there is evidence to support this statement.

Banks make money by accepting deposits, paying interest on said deposits at a rate less than the rate they lend out the deposits. As I have noted above, the amount LN node operators are earning is far less than deposit rates, and as such, a bank would not be profitable running a LN node.

LN node operators will likely benefit from economies of scale over the long run, and larger operators will likely earn more than smaller operators, however the barriers to entry will still be low.

I also don't think there is any basis for saying that becoming a LN node operator will require any kind of license. This will not be true as long as getting an on-chain transaction confirmed does not require a license. If a group of LN node operators (stupidly) tried to exclude anyone without a license, it would be trivial for other people to create their own LN network with other nodes that does not require a license.

You continue to spread fud, disinformation, and continue gaslighting the community. PLUS adds long techno-babble that developers themselves find laughable.

You say running Lightning nodes are only for banks? Yet the facts prove you wrong, https://bitcoinvisuals.com/ln-nodes

More than 5,000 nodes.

Some months ago a friend of mine invested into this lightning node and hoped for a financial improvement but wasn't what he thought about lightning node investment. I won't encourage anyone who sole aim is to invest for financial freedom, it's better to choose other investment platforms for financial freedom than lighting node.

Once more because Confused_Fury is too stupid to get it.

LN was designed for banks, if you are not a bank, you won't profit from running an LN hub.

LN is designed so the banks can be the middle man and charge LN fees.
If you can't go big with an LN hub , then go home, because you are wasting your time.
Also be ready to purchase at minimum a money transmitter license for said hub, at worse a Bank License.

Stupid_Fury , name 1 actual bank that is using Proof of Stake coins.
Since you claim they prefer it to their normal offchain fractional reserve shenanigans.