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Topic: Is my plan legal? Managing the account of a dead person (Read 362 times)

legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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That's what I'm talking about. If you are involved in investments, then you need to study the legislation and communicate with like-minded people in order to understand how to protect your investments and not pay like a obedient sheep 50% of your profits and be proud that you are a conscientious citizen.
Amen.
I'm not against paying taxes, but they need to be set fairly and be reasonable. Charging someone 50% of the profit or charging taxes on unrealised gains is morally wrong and should be avoided as far as possible.

I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

This is where many people get it wrong. It's super easy to hold your bitcoins quietly, without anyone knowing, but eventually you will want to cash out (either by converting to fiat or buying something expensive with bitcoins directly) and that's where they get you.
You need to think ahead, pay taxes on your BTC income if applicable, so when the time comes, you'd be able to explain where did all that wealth come from.


Why interact with bitcoins?
There are a lot of exchanges no KYC Level. You can exchange Bitcoin for stablecoin, and then stablecoin for fiat and declare it as self-employed income. The tax rate for self-employed people in many countries is adequate.
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1561
That's what I'm talking about. If you are involved in investments, then you need to study the legislation and communicate with like-minded people in order to understand how to protect your investments and not pay like a obedient sheep 50% of your profits and be proud that you are a conscientious citizen.
Amen.
I'm not against paying taxes, but they need to be set fairly and be reasonable. Charging someone 50% of the profit or charging taxes on unrealised gains is morally wrong and should be avoided as far as possible.

I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

This is where many people get it wrong. It's super easy to hold your bitcoins quietly, without anyone knowing, but eventually you will want to cash out (either by converting to fiat or buying something expensive with bitcoins directly) and that's where they get you.
You need to think ahead, pay taxes on your BTC income if applicable, so when the time comes, you'd be able to explain where did all that wealth come from.

legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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In Russia, people say that you can't be half pregnant. You can declare any amount of cryptocurrency and keep most of it secret from everyone, but in the blockchain all transactions are visible.
And if you ever make a mistake, you will pay a lot of fines or get jail time. I prefer to pay taxes on fiat received and not declare cryptocurrencies. It's safer in my country.

Here in my country as far as I know we get taxed for each we trade and when do withdraw it to fiat in a local Centralized Exchange that has licensed.
and
Well hahahhaha you are actually right it is much safer not to declare our cryptocurrencies only declare the fiat that we have.


This is similar to paying tax on every win at the casino, and then paying taxes when you leave the casino.

This is a game with negative mathematical expectation, in which you will always lose if you play by the rules imposed on you by the government.
copper member
Activity: 2156
Merit: 983
Part of AOBT - English Translator to Indonesia
In Russia, people say that you can't be half pregnant. You can declare any amount of cryptocurrency and keep most of it secret from everyone, but in the blockchain all transactions are visible.
And if you ever make a mistake, you will pay a lot of fines or get jail time. I prefer to pay taxes on fiat received and not declare cryptocurrencies. It's safer in my country.

Here in my country as far as I know we get taxed for each we trade and when do withdraw it to fiat in a local Centralized Exchange that has licensed.
and
Well hahahhaha you are actually right it is much safer not to declare our cryptocurrencies only declare the fiat that we have.

legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

Or you just simply buy ex. 2 Bitcoin and put them in a different wallet one with 0.5 BTC and the other is 1.5 BTC and you just said that you only have 0.5 BTC in this hardware wallet.  Grin. I mean its kinda legal right or I would say in the grey zone you still pay tax for your 0.5 BTC.
In Russia, people say that you can't be half pregnant. You can declare any amount of cryptocurrency and keep most of it secret from everyone, but in the blockchain all transactions are visible.
And if you ever make a mistake, you will pay a lot of fines or get jail time. I prefer to pay taxes on fiat received and not declare cryptocurrencies. It's safer in my country.
copper member
Activity: 2156
Merit: 983
Part of AOBT - English Translator to Indonesia
I'm just curious and I don't think there is a tax on bitcoin in my country Indonesia but. It is just simple if you buy bitcoin and keep it on your hardware wallet and say you don't have one to the government I mean they don't have evidence if you have the bitcoin right ?

Or you just simply buy ex. 2 Bitcoin and put them in a different wallet one with 0.5 BTC and the other is 1.5 BTC and you just said that you only have 0.5 BTC in this hardware wallet.  Grin. I mean its kinda legal right or I would say in the grey zone you still pay tax for your 0.5 BTC.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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I asked this on a judicial forum in the taxation segment. I asked if I was allowed to transfer my bitcoin holdings to a non EU family member to avoid heavy taxation. And that at that stage the coins are not withdrawn to a bank account.

She answered "Cashing out is not a requirement to have acquired the added value. Therefore you will have to pay taxes on this added value the moment you transfer the coins"
(...)

This doesn't even make sense. Cashing out may not be a requirement, but I don't understand where's the "added value" here. You're not gaining anything. Will YOU be required to pay tax if e.g. you gave your car to a family member?

I wouldn't rely on any advice you get from any forum and just ask at the source. You must have some tax helpline that you could call anonymously to get a proper explanation.
That's what I'm talking about. If you are involved in investments, then you need to study the legislation and communicate with like-minded people in order to understand how to protect your investments and not pay like a obedient sheep 50% of your profits and be proud that you are a conscientious citizen.
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1561
I asked this on a judicial forum in the taxation segment. I asked if I was allowed to transfer my bitcoin holdings to a non EU family member to avoid heavy taxation. And that at that stage the coins are not withdrawn to a bank account.

She answered "Cashing out is not a requirement to have acquired the added value. Therefore you will have to pay taxes on this added value the moment you transfer the coins"
(...)

This doesn't even make sense. Cashing out may not be a requirement, but I don't understand where's the "added value" here. You're not gaining anything. Will YOU be required to pay tax if e.g. you gave your car to a family member?

I wouldn't rely on any advice you get from any forum and just ask at the source. You must have some tax helpline that you could call anonymously to get a proper explanation.
legendary
Activity: 2814
Merit: 1192
I don't think they'll tax holdings that bring you loss. I don't know the us, but here in Europe most countries would consider something like that to be unconstitutional.
They want to know how much you have to make you feel obliged to pay taxes so that they don't have to keep an eye on you the whole time, but I really doubt someone will tax your holdings 30%, not to mention losses.
Even if you think about how bitcoin works, it's impossible to tax holdings. Bitcoin never stays at the same level for a year and it never will. You will either have a profit to declare, or you'll have a loss. You can't be taxed for having a loss, so the worst possible scenario is if you get something like a 10% profit and will have to pay a 30% tax, but the tax will not be from the whole thing, but only from that 10%.

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My 78 year old mother in law is a non EU citizen. We can let her go through KYC, deposit our 3 funds to her BTC address and manage it for her.
The tax hawks in my country will be shown that our accounts are empty. There is nothing for them to rob. I don't think we do anything illegal. We just donated to my mother in law who is outside of their jurisdiction.

In my country all politicians do that. Every year they have to make all their holdings, including crypto, public. It's funny when newspapers report that a guy who earns 10k EUR every month is declaring that he doesn't have a house or a car and has 5k EUR savings in the bank, but his wife owns a house and 2 cars and his 2 children won apartments in the capital Wink

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Authorities in the country of my mother in law will not expect anything from her because there was never a deposit from any local bank to her BTC address.

I do wonder, if we wish to manage her account and cash out in 2035, if that requires her to be alive at that point (live camera footage, fingerprint..)
Or if we can do that P2P without any problems.

Does this make sense or am I missing something?

Yes you are. The fact that she's not directly related to you, so if you give her money, she has to pay tax. If I'm not mistaken only your wife can donate to her mother with no tax, but this depends on the country. Also, check what will happen if she dies because you would not want to find out that she has another child besides your wife that will inherit half of her bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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I understand your dilemma.
You invest 15,000 dollars now and in 10 years, let’s say your assets will be worth a million dollars.
if you want to sell them, you will pay capital gains tax of 33-50% on the amount of $985 thousand.
I see the maximum reasonable tax amount being no more than 20%.
The criminal is not you, but your state, which wants to steal a large share of your earnings, but for unknown reasons you continue to consider yourself a criminal.
member
Activity: 202
Merit: 22

For starters, in which European country are you going to be taxed every year without having sold the investment?

It literally says in the most recent article about taxation, that crypto profits are currently taxed at 33% or 50% depending on whether the government sees us as partial traders or full time traders. The terms for this are still vague. It also says that there is currently no taxation for holding BTC, but this is to be expected in the future. By the same token my own bank imposes a wealth tax for people who have more than 60k euros in the bank.

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Cite those articles because you have misunderstood for sure. I would have to look at the laws specifically, but I would say that tax for unrealized gains is against European law.

I asked this on a judicial forum in the taxation segment. I asked if I was allowed to transfer my bitcoin holdings to a non EU family member to avoid heavy taxation. And that at that stage the coins are not withdrawn to a bank account.

She answered "Cashing out is not a requirement to have acquired the added value. Therefore you will have to pay taxes on this added value the moment you transfer the coins"

Here is a quote from the article about taxation at this point

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Do you have to pay taxes on crypto coins?
Do you own crypto coins without converting them into cash, or do you use crypto for a purchase? Then you don't pay taxes on it in Belgium yet. If you make a profit from your crypto investments, there are 3 options.

Scenario 1: You're an amateur

If you invest in crypto according to the principles of 'good housekeeping', your digital investments are exempt from taxes. The tax authorities consider you an amateur. This is, for example, the case if:

you invest in crypto as a hobby
you make long-term investments – you buy coins and hold them for a long time
you take few risks - for example by spreading your investments and by not taking out loans to invest in crypto
Will your digital coins increase in value over time? Then you do not have to declare those increases in value. And you don't have to pay VAT on crypto transactions.

Please note: do you convert your crypto coins into cash in this scenario? Then you must declare the capital gain (the difference between the purchase price and the sales price) in your tax return in the 'Miscellaneous income' box and you pay 33 percent tax on it.

Scenario 2: you are a private trader

To the government you are considered a private trader if you:

take risks with your crypto investments
regularly buy and sell and respond to heavy price fluctuations
want to see a return on your investments in the short term.
In those cases, the government considers you as a private trader. You must then declare the crypto profits in your tax return as 'Miscellaneous income'. You pay 33 percent of that to the tax authorities.

Scenario 3: you are a professional trader

Is trading cryptocurrencies your (main) job? Then you must follow the rules that a sole proprietorship follows: you declare your crypto income in your personal income tax. The usual progressive tax rates apply to your annual net income, which fluctuate between 25 and 50 percent. A few examples:

For an income that is less than 12,990 euros per year: you give up 25 percent.
For an income from 39,660 euros per year: you give up half.
Please note: as a professional trader you must also meet the other obligations of a self-employed person: for example, joining a social insurance fund and paying social contributions.

With regards to amateurs, other articles mention that there is a limit at 25% of ones portfolio being invested in crypto. If it is higher, you will not be considered an amateur

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What is the good housewife principle?
Anyone who invests in crypto coins is investing. When it comes to investments and taxes, it is important to first understand the good housewife principle.

The good housewife principle is a basic principle that applies to investments and investing in Belgium. This principle means that an investor must always exercise due care when making investment decisions.

The due diligence principle is unfortunately a vague concept and the Federal Public Service Finance will therefore look at all circumstances and facts to decide whether an investment has been made in accordance with the principle or not. The bottom line is that you need to prove that your investments are relatively risk-free. A typical strategy that fits within the principle is "buy and hold". You purchase digital coins and keep them in your possession for at least 1 year to make them profitable in the long term. In addition, the frequency, the number of transactions and the percentage of private assets that you have invested are also important. On average, 25% of your assets is taken as the limit. Finally, the tax authorities will also look at your professional activity.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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I think that the first problem is that in many countries the tax legislation for cryptocurrencies has not yet been formed and may change, so declaring cryptocurrencies has its own risks.

Could be, but OP mentioned he's from an EU country, and I imagine most of those would have crypto-related tax laws somewhat clarified by now. It could be easier if he just said which country is he from.

There is a risk that Bitcoin will cease to be the main coin and will give way to Ethereum.
Investing in only one coin for 10 years is also very risky. I would make an investment portfolio of 5-7 coins

There was a thread about this somewhere, and the historical data shows that holding just BTC for a long time yielded much better results than diversifying over the top 5 or top 10 coins. Of course there's no guarantee this will be true forever. I'm in favour of holding some ETH just in case of the "flippening", but holding too many coins is probably riskier than holding BTC only.
Anyhow, OP said he would be managing the funds even if they were in the formal custody of his mother in law, so he'd be able to take actions when/if weird things start happening.
I wouldn't look at old statistics. Bitcoin is the oldest coin and those who kept it from the very beginning made a big profit. But my advice is to consider buying several coins at least, such as Bitcoin and Ethereum. And Bitcoin may have a majority in this portfolio, for example 80%.
legendary
Activity: 3584
Merit: 5243
https://merel.mobi => buy facemasks with BTC/LTC
I think that the first problem is that in many countries the tax legislation for cryptocurrencies has not yet been formed and may change, so declaring cryptocurrencies has its own risks.

Could be, but OP mentioned he's from an EU country, and I imagine most of those would have crypto-related tax laws somewhat clarified by now. It could be easier if he just said which country is he from.
--snip--

He said he's from Belgium... Being from west EU myself, i'm vaguely familiar with some of the general idears of the laws around here... AFAIK, Belgium only taxes you if you're a professional trader (but i could be wrong). I think if you're a "goede huisvader" you don't have to pay tax on investments ("goede huisvader" translated would mean something like doing the things a normal worker would do with his hard earned money... The problem is that there's always room for discussion...)
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1561
I think that the first problem is that in many countries the tax legislation for cryptocurrencies has not yet been formed and may change, so declaring cryptocurrencies has its own risks.

Could be, but OP mentioned he's from an EU country, and I imagine most of those would have crypto-related tax laws somewhat clarified by now. It could be easier if he just said which country is he from.

There is a risk that Bitcoin will cease to be the main coin and will give way to Ethereum.
Investing in only one coin for 10 years is also very risky. I would make an investment portfolio of 5-7 coins

There was a thread about this somewhere, and the historical data shows that holding just BTC for a long time yielded much better results than diversifying over the top 5 or top 10 coins. Of course there's no guarantee this will be true forever. I'm in favour of holding some ETH just in case of the "flippening", but holding too many coins is probably riskier than holding BTC only.
Anyhow, OP said he would be managing the funds even if they were in the formal custody of his mother in law, so he'd be able to take actions when/if weird things start happening.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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First of all, make sure you understand crypto tax laws in your country, maybe you're panicking for no good reason. I'm not aware of any EU country demanding tax on unrealised crypto holdings (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong).
So if you want to buy BTC with your lawfully earned money, then you have nothing to worry about, other than paying tax on capital gains when you sell with profits. Some banks may cause troubles when sending such large amounts to an exchange, but if it's not illegal, you should be able to do so upon jumping few hurdles.

So unless your country taxes unrealised gains, moving btc to your mother in law is not necessary. Also, you need to consider how will you cash it out? Will your mother in law officially give the btc back to you (provided she's still alive in 2035)? Will she be able to explain where did she get that from? It could be worth millions by then and it could trigger much more scrutinous investigation with a risk of whole amount getting seized.
I think that the first problem is that in many countries the tax legislation for cryptocurrencies has not yet been formed and may change, so declaring cryptocurrencies has its own risks. There is a risk that Bitcoin will cease to be the main coin and will give way to Ethereum.
Investing in only one coin for 10 years is also very risky. I would make an investment portfolio of 5-7 coins
legendary
Activity: 2436
Merit: 1561
First of all, make sure you understand crypto tax laws in your country, maybe you're panicking for no good reason. I'm not aware of any EU country demanding tax on unrealised crypto holdings (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong).
So if you want to buy BTC with your lawfully earned money, then you have nothing to worry about, other than paying tax on capital gains when you sell with profits. Some banks may cause troubles when sending such large amounts to an exchange, but if it's not illegal, you should be able to do so upon jumping few hurdles.

So unless your country taxes unrealised gains, moving btc to your mother in law is not necessary. Also, you need to consider how will you cash it out? Will your mother in law officially give the btc back to you (provided she's still alive in 2035)? Will she be able to explain where did she get that from? It could be worth millions by then and it could trigger much more scrutinous investigation with a risk of whole amount getting seized.

legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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How much does it cost to consult a good lawyer in Europe?
Investments are private information, and a lot of data should not be published on forums. Most likely, in every country you can find a way to safely invest in cryptocurrencies.

In Russia, such issues are resolved very simply. My 78 year old relative can say that this is his wallet and his bitcoins, and no one will bother to punish an elderly pensioner. Even if he is called to the tax office or the police, he will become ill there and will go to intensive care in an ambulance. And then there will be a lot of complaints to the prosecutor’s office, after which the tax and police will quickly lose interest.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 2017
Does this make sense or am I missing something?

No it doesn't. Sorry.
First of all, the paranoia is too high in this equation, as Stompix has already mentioned.

Sigh.. Paranoia

Yes, paranioa. I don't know if I'm going to waste a lot of time with this because it's not the first time I come across someone who insists on seeing everything negative and when you try to make things easier for him he keeps looking for and finding arguments to keep on complicating things.

For starters, in which European country are you going to be taxed every year without having sold the investment?

At this point only for realized profits, but I read articles about holdings too. Imagine being taxed 33% for holding BTC at 47k, and it goes down to 17k the year after that. It makes no sense but this is their strategy.

Cite those articles because you have misunderstood for sure. I would have to look at the laws specifically, but I would say that tax for unrealized gains is against European law.

So my plan is like this:

5k in my name (this is only 7% of my portfolio)
5k in my wife's name (I transfer 5k to her)
5k in my fathers name (I pay him)

...

I do wonder, if we wish to manage her account and cash out in 2035...

Look, I wouldn't have that problem. You're talking about investing 15K and waiting three more halvings with what could easily have turned into 0.5M for you. I would buy it all myself, and pay any applicable taxes. Period.
legendary
Activity: 1932
Merit: 4602
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Well, after reading all these legal plans to avoid taxes legally, I feel happy that I live in a country where Bitcoin is not subject to any regulatory law (knowing that Bitcoin is illegal in my country), here in my country we do not have any law to regulate Bitcoin or impose taxes on Bitcoin holders.

I don't know much about taxes in Europe, but if this is really true, then this is the stupidity of governments. How do they impose exorbitant taxes, which makes citizens in these countries think of a thousand ways to avoid paying these disgusting taxes in any way? There are even lawyers specializing in finding legal loopholes for this problem. This is ridiculous.
Although Bitcoin is illegal in your country, no one considers you a criminal on this forum. Using Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies is the right of every free person.
And if the government wants to take large taxes and force the use of a complex tax reporting system, then any person will look for a way out of the situation.
legendary
Activity: 1848
Merit: 1982
Fully Regulated Crypto Casino
Well, after reading all these legal plans to avoid taxes legally, I feel happy that I live in a country where Bitcoin is not subject to any regulatory law (knowing that Bitcoin is illegal in my country), here in my country we do not have any law to regulate Bitcoin or impose taxes on Bitcoin holders.

I don't know much about taxes in Europe, but if this is really true, then this is the stupidity of governments. How do they impose exorbitant taxes, which makes citizens in these countries think of a thousand ways to avoid paying these disgusting taxes in any way? There are even lawyers specializing in finding legal loopholes for this problem. This is ridiculous.
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