Topic: Is PoS dead? - page 16. (Read 17352 times)

It happened before but no one cares. - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ghashio-and-double-spending-against-betcoin-dice-327767

I'd love to see someone attempt a 51% attack.  Nxt's price would go sooo high, I'd be rich.

1) Hundreds of Millions.
2) Theoretically nothing, if you discount checkpoints. with checkpoints it's hard.

But then there's the social 51% attack where a tiny majority hold a massive percentage of the currency. When this occurs the market is open to extensive manipulation for the benefit of the few, as with real world economics (the 1%).

NXT is a good example of the social 51% attack, the top 33 accounts hold 51% between them. The top 50 accounts hold 61.2%. I'm quite sure the top 1% of accounts (400 ish) hold almost everything, with the other 99% playing with spare change. source

I think that's why you see so many NXT shills trying to ram it down everybodies throats on this forum.

That is actually the most important question here.

I requested some data on this somewhere here on this forum but never received answer.

What are the costs of performing a 51%-attack in
1) PoW?
2) PoS?

Anyone?

The purpose of PoW and PoS is to provide a distributed consensus for crypto currencies. It does not matter if it is backed by something or not as long as it the consensus works. The cost and risk to do it is a totally different issue but it is a important issue. high cost may make it prohibitive and high risk (e.g. the 51%+ attack issue) may make it fail.

Man, as he said before, we dare you, we DOUBLE-DARE YOU to perform this attack to NXT.

Thanks.

You can't borrow money to buy 40% of a PoS crypto, at least an established PoS crypto like NXT, it would be in the range of hundreds of billions (that's with nine 0's) of $$$. Buying 1% of NXTs drives price 25% in geometrical progression. Please do your maths homework first.

On the other hand it only takes hundreds of millions of $$$ to hijack a PoW crypto like Bitcoin, not to mention smaller ones.

Which adds up to, it takes on the range of 1000 times more money to attack a PoS crypto than a PoW crypto.

I see from the posts that a number of people haven't cottoned on to the core issue.

Step one: with borrowed money, buy 40% of the coins.
Step two: sell all the coins, pay back the loan, banking any profits or covering any loss.
Step three: mount continuous, free, penalty-less attacks for evermore.

51% is the minimum for a statistically-guaranteed success. At 40% success isn't guaranteed but those are terrific odds when you can mount a permanent attack basically for free. The odds get more forbidding at 20%, obviously --- but when paired with infinite free attacks, that's still quite tempting, kinda like a CDO Tier3.

That's my understanding of the vulnerability anyway --- I am open to correction.

Cheers,

Graham


Edit: explicitly added openness to correction

While the free give away POS coins don't seem to be going anywhere, I can help but think that POW will become more and more frowned upon as it starts to leave a larger and larger carbon footprint.

However, POS certainly has it issues. I am excited about the up and coming POI (Proof of Importance) that NEM will be introducing.

Should I tell you how I know that's a lie?

Why? Because I believe in Bitshares? In my view DPOS is much better than POS... I also believe that NXT has huge potential if this is what bothers you with my post... To me only Bitcoin doen't make any sense...

The only PoW coins that should exist and make sense are those that actually do something...XPM, Curecoin and any other coin doing some valuable protein folding, even solarcoin maybe...but bitcoin?? Please...move on people...

Your post begins so well!!  

But it ends so bad!!  

Yeah.. POS is dead.. probably the reason why we are seeing Nxt clones emerging left and right.

Seriously though.. this is why I think Nxt will suceed: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J8uhdshu9epGRrQHBaloGc4itdvuAHZDAUtNDjOhz-8/edit?usp=sharing

It uses at least 8000 times less energy to power the network and transaction fees will be able to be 2000+ times smaller once Bitcoin stops printing more money and inflating the supply in the mean time.

Regarding the nothing at stake problem, Nxt solves it by making it computationally tricky to figure out how to fake a fork, as well as some other tricks.

Anyway, you may think this for now.. but 10 years from now, I suspect you'll be wishing you'd gotten in on Nxt while you could get it for only 6 cents each.

You must be on drugs if you believe that PoW is better than PoS...

The whole point of bitcoin and altcoins is to create better payment protocols, faster transactions, no need for intermediaries and banks to process your transactions during weekdays, create smart contracts, transfer your funds and assets world wide instantly through the net with the maximum security.

And most importantly...wait for it...to create private money and security from any governmental manipulation...

Those are the fundamentals. Once you realise that you will all realise that the solution is Bitshares X (fast transactions and no way any government can ever take control of your assets) and I3 DACS. The sooner you realise that the better you will be in the future...

Stop wasting your time with theoretical conversations and welcome to the future of Bitshares!

Well that seals it. If darkota's not interested I definitely am  

This thread is basically a load of b.s. written by posters who are clueless about both the analytics of monetary systems in general and - so it seems - crypto currencies in particular.

Firstly, if the argument is that POS is threatened by monopolies of buying power, then POW is even worse because it is threatened by monopolies of BOTH buying AND mining power.

Secondly, the POS implementation that NXT has is about as secure as any coin can get against 51%'s (in fact 90%) because of its ability to transparently disable the staking capacity of holdings which are not actively generating blocks. So that shows you how much of a clue darkota, in hist post above, has about NXT.

Thirdly, sure, active stakers earn interest, but if that's your best argument against an algo then I'm kind of about as impressed as if you'd told me that you didn't like it because it sounded too much like you had to have attended a barbecue

Fourthly, the criticism that POS coins aren't backed by anything ? Are you serious ? This is crypto. Try to convince an ordinary Joe that POW represents "backing" and you won't need to work for the rest of your life. ALL crypto is base money - not proxy money. Base money, by definition, does not have any backing.

The energy usage is too big of an issue with PoW coins. We're in/moving toward an era of conserving resources and mining doesn't support this

In POW the rich (who buy mining hardware) burn power and get richer without significantly benefiting anyone else.

In POS, the rich who save get richer passively, and the poor who save get richer passively at the same rate.  Getting rich through doing something productive for people is a whole lot faster in either case than getting rich through monetary deflation.

What a lot of complete garbage by OP. Clueless post.

POS is a generation of evolution over POW. It almost perfectly supports the concept of money as a tokenised form of wealth. POW does not.

And don't give me cr*p about 51% buyouts and nonsense either.