This again...?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-ripple-a-bitcoin-killer-or-complementer-founder-of-mt-gox-will-launch-ripple-128413
and many other topics...
Topic: is ripple a trojan horse that will destroy bitcoin? - page 4. (Read 9851 times)
I definitely don't see it as a threat to Bitcoin, and I see it as a complement that, if it works, will reinforce Bitcoin.
The biggest fundamental difference I see is that Bitcoin is a platform that issues "Bitcoins" and keeps track of them, and Ripple is a platform that lets the participants issue IOU's and keeps track of them.
A ripple IOU is only as valuable as you deem it to be, and how the law deems it as well. Here's a problem the way I see it: Ripple will have chargebacks enforced by law, regardless of whether the technical design allows for them!
Ripple will have interesting security and legal implications all its own that differ vastly from Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, if someone hacks your computer and steals your bitcoins, the consequences are limited to a) your coins are gone, b) the thief gets away with coins in numbers no greater than what you originally had, and c) the coins are now arguably tainted to the extent they can be traced back to the theft. No laws can change any of that.
With Ripple, imagine someone hacks your computer and uses your private keys to create an IOU to them for a million dollars. A lot of big questions remain to be settled. A Ripple IOU for an amount like that is totally dependent on its legal collectibility, and in the US (and probably most other jurisdictions), you can't create a legally binding debt on someone else's behalf just by forging their signature, even if your forgery is convincing. A dispute over collectibility would boil down to whether the digital signature was judged to be genuine - and not in a mathematical sense, but whether it accurately represents a commitment intentionally made by the key's owner. If the mathematical validity can be set aside by a judge, it longer has any value and there is no point in depending on it.
The problem gets even more complicated: if it's for a million dollars, it's easy to point out that that must "obviously" be bogus, but what if it's fraud for a much smaller amount and comes with a much less ridiculous and more believable story? What if it crosses international borders? What if the participants are subject to conflicting laws, where one party's jurisdiction recognizes a debt and the other's doesn't? What happens when uncollectible debt is traded from participant to participant, numerous "links" deep? At some point, what's the value of Ripple's decentralization in the first place if its proper functioning is so dependent on socially-based agreements?
All it takes is a few high profile incidents where people repudiate large Ripple debts because they were "hacked", and suddenly the whole thing is threatened by the premise that any obligation you buy might be bogus because somebody along the way can claim the original obligation doesn't exist because they were hacked.
The biggest fundamental difference I see is that Bitcoin is a platform that issues "Bitcoins" and keeps track of them, and Ripple is a platform that lets the participants issue IOU's and keeps track of them.
A ripple IOU is only as valuable as you deem it to be, and how the law deems it as well. Here's a problem the way I see it: Ripple will have chargebacks enforced by law, regardless of whether the technical design allows for them!
Ripple will have interesting security and legal implications all its own that differ vastly from Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, if someone hacks your computer and steals your bitcoins, the consequences are limited to a) your coins are gone, b) the thief gets away with coins in numbers no greater than what you originally had, and c) the coins are now arguably tainted to the extent they can be traced back to the theft. No laws can change any of that.
With Ripple, imagine someone hacks your computer and uses your private keys to create an IOU to them for a million dollars. A lot of big questions remain to be settled. A Ripple IOU for an amount like that is totally dependent on its legal collectibility, and in the US (and probably most other jurisdictions), you can't create a legally binding debt on someone else's behalf just by forging their signature, even if your forgery is convincing. A dispute over collectibility would boil down to whether the digital signature was judged to be genuine - and not in a mathematical sense, but whether it accurately represents a commitment intentionally made by the key's owner. If the mathematical validity can be set aside by a judge, it longer has any value and there is no point in depending on it.
The problem gets even more complicated: if it's for a million dollars, it's easy to point out that that must "obviously" be bogus, but what if it's fraud for a much smaller amount and comes with a much less ridiculous and more believable story? What if it crosses international borders? What if the participants are subject to conflicting laws, where one party's jurisdiction recognizes a debt and the other's doesn't? What happens when uncollectible debt is traded from participant to participant, numerous "links" deep? At some point, what's the value of Ripple's decentralization in the first place if its proper functioning is so dependent on socially-based agreements?
All it takes is a few high profile incidents where people repudiate large Ripple debts because they were "hacked", and suddenly the whole thing is threatened by the premise that any obligation you buy might be bogus because somebody along the way can claim the original obligation doesn't exist because they were hacked.
As someone getting to test Ripple, its interesting to watch the hysteria about it. It is a Bitcoin Complement. With all the concerns about trust it's time has come.
I got also the test account and tried to read the protocol specifications etc, but currently it is pretty difficult for me to understand the protocol. It is very interesting though.
I will call it "The Bitcoin Killer" just to troll the bitcoin fanatics.
As someone getting to test Ripple, its interesting to watch the hysteria about it. It is a Bitcoin Complement. With all the concerns about trust it's time has come.
In a way you could say that simply holding cash is a loan you have given to the world.
As for traditional banking loans I don't think Ripple can replace that, those things are based on police kicking you out of your house if you don't pay.
Trusting family and friends is not really foolproof, I have seen many family members rip each other off and its not pretty.
Ripple is extra risky because a chain of people owe each other money; if any one of the people in that chain or net doesn't pay up then the next link may have no money to pay with or may decide not to as well.
Loans, stocks and contracts are based on police and courts. Honestly I think people should rent or fully buy with savings instead of continuing our failing credit-card-economy.
Tell me; why all this debt slavery and personal bankruptcy when you could rent the first years and then buy, effectively ending with the same final price as a loan would have cost you? Lets do away with the old system.
As for traditional banking loans I don't think Ripple can replace that, those things are based on police kicking you out of your house if you don't pay.
Trusting family and friends is not really foolproof, I have seen many family members rip each other off and its not pretty.
Ripple is extra risky because a chain of people owe each other money; if any one of the people in that chain or net doesn't pay up then the next link may have no money to pay with or may decide not to as well.
Loans, stocks and contracts are based on police and courts. Honestly I think people should rent or fully buy with savings instead of continuing our failing credit-card-economy.
Tell me; why all this debt slavery and personal bankruptcy when you could rent the first years and then buy, effectively ending with the same final price as a loan would have cost you? Lets do away with the old system.
then it seems like something that wins out, where bitcoin will be rather stillborn compared to our grand plans for it.
Ripple has the same hurdle as does Bitcoin: PayPay, VIScAm, Mastercrap, JP Morgue, Western ULose, etc.
Bitcoin and Ripple are different things. Bitcoin is P2P cash, and Ripple is P2P banking.
Ripple depends on reputation-based user profiles. No real identities required for now though. But it can't offer the discretion and privacy of Bitcoin.
Ripple might be a setback though for those who hoped that in the future each and every single transaction would be with Bitcoins. Trusted business-to-business relationships may be the main application for Ripple, as they do not require the near-anonymity of Bitcoin and all the overhead that comes with it.
Ripple depends on reputation-based user profiles. No real identities required for now though. But it can't offer the discretion and privacy of Bitcoin.
Ripple might be a setback though for those who hoped that in the future each and every single transaction would be with Bitcoins. Trusted business-to-business relationships may be the main application for Ripple, as they do not require the near-anonymity of Bitcoin and all the overhead that comes with it.
Ripple+Fiat doesn't have all the advantages of Bitcoin. It probably doesn't even have most of them. Ripple+Bitcoin might be a powerful combination though.
If something came up which is superior to Bitcoin hands-down, it could "destroy" Bitcoin and it would be perfectly fine.
If something came up which is superior to Bitcoin hands-down, it could "destroy" Bitcoin and it would be perfectly fine.
controversial subject line, sure, but what about it?
if it is just a carrier of sorts, which has all the advantages of bitcoin but never makes people deal with a currency called "bitcoin", then it seems like something that wins out, where bitcoin will be rather stillborn compared to our grand plans for it.
if it is just a carrier of sorts, which has all the advantages of bitcoin but never makes people deal with a currency called "bitcoin", then it seems like something that wins out, where bitcoin will be rather stillborn compared to our grand plans for it.
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