I consider myself an average person. I'm fairly careful and attentive, but not extra careful, and my understanding of financial operations is generally pretty basic. I've only had to reverse a transaction once on my life, and that was because of a bug when I was paying with card in a supermarket in a foreign country, when the first transaction seemingly didn't go through, and then I was charged the same amount of money twice. Such a bug would not have occurred with blockchain, so it's an exception.
In general, I don't think much of reversibility of financial transactions and don't need this feature. It's not easy to do anyway, as one needs to convince the bank that there was a mistake. As for crypto transactions, there are indeed some nice stories of mistakes getting resolved.
To me, BTC irreversibility is neutral: I don't benefit from it, but I'm okay with it.
Topic: Is the irreversibility of Bitcoin transactions a downside for an average person? - page 3. (Read 572 times)
November 02, 2023, 09:30:40 AM
November 02, 2023, 08:20:57 AM
I think based on the carefulness in the transaction procedures, I learned from my thread in Technical Discussions board from @Apogio that there's a feature that allows you to uniquely identify a user on decentralized wallets and it is called Paynyms.
What it does is this: It derives and unique code from your wallet seed phases that is unique to you. If you wish to send to a reciever, you just need to input the person's ID and the wallet generates a different address that the receiver can spend from. its very easy and user friendly as you just need to follow the person and upon one confirmation, you can now send the person funds as many times as you want. This feature is present on Sparrow and samurai wallets and it mitigates mistakes on sending to the wrong address. The wallet creates a new address for the receiver spend from every time and your funds is sent securely and received by the intended user.
For more information please visit https://bitcoiner.guide/paynym/ and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0047
What it does is this: It derives and unique code from your wallet seed phases that is unique to you. If you wish to send to a reciever, you just need to input the person's ID and the wallet generates a different address that the receiver can spend from. its very easy and user friendly as you just need to follow the person and upon one confirmation, you can now send the person funds as many times as you want. This feature is present on Sparrow and samurai wallets and it mitigates mistakes on sending to the wrong address. The wallet creates a new address for the receiver spend from every time and your funds is sent securely and received by the intended user.
For more information please visit https://bitcoiner.guide/paynym/ and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0047
November 02, 2023, 07:59:48 AM
In a centralized platform can be possible this can of feature for have a reverse transaction, one of the platforms we are using now offers this kind of feature but of course there's another charge for it, this kind of feature is quite risky to the people who are using their own wallets could be prone to scams. Its just a small portion of the percentage making wrong sending of addresses is human error, not on the system it is so they do not need to adjust to those possible mistakes.
November 01, 2023, 06:38:15 PM
for centuries people used cash/coins. where it got physically handed over to a recipient and if you wanted it back you had to plead to the receiver with good reason
with digital bank accounts you still need to ask a bank.. *
with digital bank accounts you still need to ask a bank.. *
With physical money you will likely be able to talk with the receiver, but with digital money you might accidentally send it to someone you don't know, or the receiver might be unresponsive for some reason.
I think that the average user must be happy to know that once in his wallet, his BTC has no chance of disappearing because of a potentially reversible transaction. Nope?
Especially long term HODLers
Especially long term HODLers
The average user receives their coins from a "reliable" source - an exchange, their employer, etc. Those are not likely to chargeback if they could.
November 01, 2023, 08:12:20 AM
Bitcoin can be used on services or networks that provide a refund feature, where you can deposit your money into a payment card that accepts Bitcoin and use the Visa or MasterCard network to make settlements and return funds, or use the Bitcoin network, in which transactions are final and cannot be reversed. So, in the case of Bitcoin, you have several options and you can Choose the most suitable one according to your need.
November 01, 2023, 07:57:44 AM
Senders often want to be able to undo a transaction if something goes wrong, but receivers often want to be sure that the transaction cant be undone to protect themselves against bogus chargebacks. Since most people often put on the sender's hat, it does make you think about why people would praise Bitcoin's irreversible transfers.
But one has to wonder if this praised inability to be undone doesnt also help senders feel better about themselves. By getting rid of the chance of chargebacks, businesses might be able to lower their prices, which would save customers money. The question here is whether the consumer's faith in possible price cuts is greater than the perceived hassle of deals that cant be undone.
But one has to wonder if this praised inability to be undone doesnt also help senders feel better about themselves. By getting rid of the chance of chargebacks, businesses might be able to lower their prices, which would save customers money. The question here is whether the consumer's faith in possible price cuts is greater than the perceived hassle of deals that cant be undone.
November 01, 2023, 04:39:48 AM
Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted.
Even in centralized payment systems that tx reversal is possible, it is not so easy to do, you have to report to the centralized body with proof of a mistake or scam, and this process can take a long time without it being resolved, so it isn't as if you the sender has the power to just send tx's and reverse them yourself.In the BTC network there is no central authority nor a single point of failure, tx's can only be reversed if a malicious miner controls 51% of the network's hashrate and the chances of it happening is slim to none. BTC is decentralized and it is safe because tx's cannot be reversed once it has be confirmed, it is surely not a downside and people should double check their tx before broadcasting it to the network.
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November 01, 2023, 02:29:12 AM
For me, the irreversibility in bitcoin transactions is always one of the features that makes bitcoin transaction highly secure, no matter which way we try to look at it. I tell for sure that there would have been more scams, much more than any of us can or would have imagined if it was actually possible to reverse a bitcoin transaction after hitting the send button.
And even come to think of this, like sending or transferring fiat money to other people in the region where we live, ones you send money to someone and the transaction reports comes back as successful, that transaction cannot be reversed expect if network from the receiving bank is so bad that the transaction has to bounce back. and if for example, you mistakenly sent money to a wrong account, and you want the transaction reversed, you have to visit the bank you made the transfer from, and they may ask you to get a court order which you must submit back to them, without it, your money is probably gone, except the person that received the money is a good Samaritan and decides to return the money to the account it came from.
This is also somewhat similar to a bitcoin transaction, i don't see any way being able to reverse a bitcoin transaction would have been something to celebrate.
And even come to think of this, like sending or transferring fiat money to other people in the region where we live, ones you send money to someone and the transaction reports comes back as successful, that transaction cannot be reversed expect if network from the receiving bank is so bad that the transaction has to bounce back. and if for example, you mistakenly sent money to a wrong account, and you want the transaction reversed, you have to visit the bank you made the transfer from, and they may ask you to get a court order which you must submit back to them, without it, your money is probably gone, except the person that received the money is a good Samaritan and decides to return the money to the account it came from.
This is also somewhat similar to a bitcoin transaction, i don't see any way being able to reverse a bitcoin transaction would have been something to celebrate.
November 01, 2023, 02:14:48 AM
Bitcoin should teach us responsibility and knowing that this kind of thing is going to happen, shouldn't we be prepared that this will happen to us? Plus, if we were to remove or even make a lot of exceptions when this kind of thing happen then it will snowball into more and more exceptions that will end up bitcoin network being known to easily cave to pressure from people. Irreversible transactions also teaches us to be responsible on how we do our transactions which I think is a better thing to have more than people exploiting the implementation of reversible transactions.
November 01, 2023, 01:52:39 AM
Those that send money generally want to have an option to reverse the transaction if there's a mistake or if they didn't receive what they wanted. Those that receive money want transactions be irreversible to not get scammed by chargebacks.
Both of them are possible together and I don't understand what's the problem? You can reverse transaction on Electrum by using Cancel Transaction option. Electrum uses Replace By Fee option and cancels transaction by double-spending its inputs back to your wallet with an increased fee than you had on original TX. You can use this option before your transaction gets confirmed, when it gets confirmed, it's gone permanently. So, if you made a mistake, you have some minutes to fix it, that's a perfect possibility!
November 01, 2023, 01:51:32 AM
If somebody wants reversible transactions, he(or she) can use the fiat payments processors like PayPal and Skrill. The people have choice, which is great.
Bitcoin/crypto transactions should remain irreversible, because there won't be any centralized entity, that decides which payment reversal is a scam attempt and which one is simply a wrong transaction. I agree that "the average Joe" might have some difficulties with irreversible crypto transactions and maybe the irreversible transactions are one of the reasons why crypto isn't mass adopted, but there's no way around this.
If you want refunds, choose fiat, if you don't want refunds, just use crypto.
Bitcoin/crypto transactions should remain irreversible, because there won't be any centralized entity, that decides which payment reversal is a scam attempt and which one is simply a wrong transaction. I agree that "the average Joe" might have some difficulties with irreversible crypto transactions and maybe the irreversible transactions are one of the reasons why crypto isn't mass adopted, but there's no way around this.
If you want refunds, choose fiat, if you don't want refunds, just use crypto.
November 01, 2023, 12:46:11 AM
I personally support the irreversibility of Bitcoin, because it adds trust to a system that should in theory be better than it's competitors. Yes, it is bad when you are on the sender side and when you made a mistake with the transactions, but when you are the receiver and the sender cannot reverse a transaction... then it is a added bonus.
In any way..... we signed up for this, because we wanted financial freedom and also because we want zero third parties being able to reverse transactions... so we should accept the consequences and just be responsible.
In any way..... we signed up for this, because we wanted financial freedom and also because we want zero third parties being able to reverse transactions... so we should accept the consequences and just be responsible.
November 01, 2023, 12:31:54 AM
For the average user who does not have sufficient knowledge about the Bitcoin network and the security and protection factors, yes, the possibility of reversing Bitcoin transactions is a negative aspect, because he may not realize that he will be the first victim if there is a possibility of reversing a Bitcoin transaction.
This problem appears especially during times of congestion, as many inexperienced users want to know the required fees or users who do not want to pay more fees to speed up their transactions. When the transaction is delayed due to network congestion, the average user begins to get upset and search for solutions to restart the transaction.
This problem appears especially during times of congestion, as many inexperienced users want to know the required fees or users who do not want to pay more fees to speed up their transactions. When the transaction is delayed due to network congestion, the average user begins to get upset and search for solutions to restart the transaction.
November 01, 2023, 12:29:07 AM
I don't think it's a problem in general. If you are attracted to Bitcoin for what it is and its properties, such as limiting supply and decentralization you have to put up with the irreversibility of transactions, whether you like it or not. These are the rules of the game, and seeing that Bitcoin is increasingly trending more as an investment vehicle than as a P2P currency I don't see the problem. Now when spot ETFs start to be approved people who want to invest and escape irreversibility will buy Bitcoin ETFs through their bank or broker, and when they want to spend they will first sell the ETF (or part of it) and spend with their card or CBDC afterwards.
November 01, 2023, 12:05:12 AM
To be frank about it, Bitcoin's irreversibility can be not working for anyone who is not so careful when transacting with the platform he is used to. One must triple check the address to avoid any mistake because we know the bad consequences of taking chances...no return no exchange so one must make sure before hitting the button SEND. This is something that one must be educated with when dealing with Bitcoin or most cryptos for that matter...of course it would be a little different if you are transacting with people you know because you can just contact them in case of a mistake, otherwise this is not a child toy one can just play with.
If we look at it, bitcoin itself according to satoshi us primarily a means of payment and then the other use of it is secondary. As a payment mechanism I go with the idea of it not been irreversible, because merchants will suffer more should the irreversibility not been there, than a random person that makes a costly mistake of sending to an address which is wrong. Reversing an already established transaction would make many merchants to be wary of using bitcoin for their payment purpose and will reduce its adoption and transparency. But If you’re the one sending and you it’s irreversible you would be extra cautious to make a mistake and should it happen then you take your cross which is fair enough.
The use of QR codes can be used by merchants ant it’s likes to avoid occasional errors by its customers from sending into wrong addresses. This way everything is fair enough for everyone. So for an average person the first security is for him not to get scam and this outweighs the risk of him making mistake which the irreversibility solves
October 31, 2023, 11:57:55 PM
what the average person need is fiat and a platform serving as escrow. we won't worry about it after all the CBDC is coming. the average person are not forced to using BTC for its transactions, merchants will always prefer the fiat even if they accept BTC.
the average person i think will not be convinced to used BTC anyway, unless they also accept this irreveribility as a positive feature.
October 31, 2023, 11:39:17 PM
To be frank about it, Bitcoin's irreversibility can be not working for anyone who is not so careful when transacting with the platform he is used to. One must triple check the address to avoid any mistake because we know the bad consequences of taking chances...no return no exchange so one must make sure before hitting the button SEND. This is something that one must be educated with when dealing with Bitcoin or most cryptos for that matter...of course it would be a little different if you are transacting with people you know because you can just contact them in case of a mistake, otherwise this is not a child toy one can just play with.
October 31, 2023, 11:22:02 PM
There are pros and cons for both.
Sure it would be great if your funds were stolen or you sent to the wrong address to reverse them since those are accidental and transactions you didn’t approve.
The issue is that if you allow transaction to be reversed then so will scams happen. People will buy stuff, pay with bitcoin and then try to reverse it, which is obviously not good.
In my opinion I think the way it is now is the perfect method since you know once it’s confirmed it’s yours forever and you don’t need to worry about it reversing.
Sure it would be great if your funds were stolen or you sent to the wrong address to reverse them since those are accidental and transactions you didn’t approve.
The issue is that if you allow transaction to be reversed then so will scams happen. People will buy stuff, pay with bitcoin and then try to reverse it, which is obviously not good.
In my opinion I think the way it is now is the perfect method since you know once it’s confirmed it’s yours forever and you don’t need to worry about it reversing.
October 31, 2023, 11:09:31 PM
I think you need to ask yourself too: how often you ask a refund when you sent money by mistake, to scammer etc?
I never make any mistake, but I ever send to a scammer few times, since the amount is small I'm not asking for a refund because the process is complicated and no guarantee I will get back my money.
Since I've deal with that and accept it as a lesson, I don't think irreversibility is the main problem for an average person, transaction fee is still the main problem.
I never make any mistake, but I ever send to a scammer few times, since the amount is small I'm not asking for a refund because the process is complicated and no guarantee I will get back my money.
Since I've deal with that and accept it as a lesson, I don't think irreversibility is the main problem for an average person, transaction fee is still the main problem.
October 31, 2023, 10:16:44 PM
I think everyone has already adopted a traditional way of sending transactions when they are about to send it, they will check if everything is right because that's the basic thing you need to know of using bitcoins as payment. We only have a few cases where some person sent it to the wrong address but they were not paying attention while they sending it. That's why every exchange has some warning every time you are about to send some transactions in order to avoid such problems to happen on their users.
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