Is there a market for "fresh" coins? - page 2.

BTCBinary

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Quote from: Funny on January 06, 2016, 05:52:01 AM

Hey guys, ive been looking at the blockchain and wondering what miners do with their coins. Maybe even a random lucky GPU miner who happens to mine the block first. What does he then do with those 25 coins?

Are there a unique use to them that can't be applied in coins that have been teammates l transacted multiple times?

Actually is quite impossible for a miner mining with GPU hardware to find a block; Unless he has a very large quantity of GPUs and free electricity it wont be feasable to use GPUs for bitcoin mining. However you can mine other coins and profit even more than mining new Bitcoins.
But answering directly to your answer, miners usualy sell most of their coins to cover expenses. even the ones who are already in profit, tend to dump some. Of course that they also hold some coins and pay for loans or simply reinvest those coins. So, if you take a look at it, most of these coins end up being dumped!

pereira4

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I think there is yes, it's pretty niche and selective but this shouldn't be happening at any levels. It shows Bitcoin still fails at being completely fungible. We need more privacy and the blockchain to be less transparent if we want to gain more fungibility. In the future with the BIPs that are coming we will reach this goal tho.

Betwrong

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Quote from: owm123 on January 06, 2016, 07:27:42 AM

Quote from: Betwrong on January 06, 2016, 07:24:55 AM

Quote from: helloeverybody on January 06, 2016, 06:09:22 AM

Im not quite sure why anyone would actuall want a newly mined coin over one thats been round the block a few times, The whole tainted coins thing should be irrelevent in that just because your coin has been used possibly for something illegal in the past should be of no concern to the current holder.

I dont think ive ever even looked back though any of my addresses to see how new any of my coins are because i really dont care, i guess for some this may be a big thing though. who knows.

Same here. Why should we care whether the coins "new and clean" or "old and dirty"? They are all just like any other money ffs, we can't know about their hystory and we should bother either IMO.

People care, because you never know when you can be in such situation like this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting
http://www.bitedge.co/blog/coinbase-restricts-users-for-gambling-transactions/

Wow! thanks for the links. Somehow I didn't know about this stuff happening. Blockchain analysis is real business now as they say. I should read more about this stuff.

spooderman

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unfortunately there will always be a slight appeal to new coins. let's hope it does not become too large, because it does so at the expense of fungibility.

morantis

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I never treat a mined coin any different than a exchanged or earned coin. I end up moving them from one wallet to another before the end of the lifetime of that coin, but I do this as a warm/hot/cold wallet thing, not to avoid any traces. In the end, I could not tell you what percentage of the coins I have right now come from any given source.

phishead

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Quote from: randy8777 on January 06, 2016, 05:22:12 PM

it could be that people want the freshly mined coins to maintain their privacy. but this can also be achieved by simply mixing the "not fresh" coins.

This inherently doesn't really matter, because essentially, you would be mixing cow manure with other cow manure... mixing something with taint, A.K.A "shit", means that the coins are still shit. This is why you don't see too often people taking fresh coins and putting them in mixers for god knows what reason.

Fungibility is and should matter to people who want to use a currency anywhere without bias of the previous transactions someone else made with that coin.

The other day, I found a dollar bill at work that had a B and R before and after respectively on the back of the dollar bill which, of course spells "BONER". Doesn't necessarily mean that it won't be accepted in most stores, because the one I work at did, but, would you rather have a bill with just "ONE" on the back rather than a "BONER"? Would you be more willing to spend your dick bill somewhere to get rid of a graffitied dollar, incase you where to go a bank to deposit it into your checking account; and to avoid the potential of having your perfectly accepted dollar denied?

Same concept.

lumeire

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Quote from: owm123 on January 06, 2016, 05:40:29 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Whats the purpose of an uncirculated coin, 1 BTc is 1 BTc ??

Its not really the case that 1btc == 1 btc, becasue bitcoin has weak fungability. This means that some bitcoin are "distinguishable". Thus mine 1 btc is different then yours 1 btc. This can lead to blacklists of certain bitcoins, if they are found to be related with crime. Its slowly starting to be a problem, for example,
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

Core Bitcion devs are aware of this problem: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6568 :

Quote

Tightly linked to privacy is fungibility, an essential characteristic of a money like good. When coins are overly distinguishable and people find themselves feeling obligated to consult (likely centralized) blacklists before accepting coins the utility of Bitcoin as a money is reduced.

Adams Black lecture about this is good, if you interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAdI3Gzodo

If need more, just google bitcoin fungability, and will find lots of articles about this problem, e.g.,
http://cointelegraph.com/news/113897/bitcoin-violates-the-principle-of-fungibility
http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-fungibility-essential/
https://www.weusecoins.com/adam-back-confidential-transactions/
http://bravenewcoin.com/news/the-bitcoin-big-bang-tracking-tainted-bitcoins

Off course mined bitcoins, have no history, thus no taint, and are cleanest. For this reason they are considered more valuable.

and many more

From the proposed short term solutions listed in the github link, IMO this should be implemented as soon as possible:

"Include a private transaction submission tool enabled by default"

owm123

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Quote from: bitbaby on January 06, 2016, 11:02:51 PM

Quote from: Mikestang on January 06, 2016, 07:17:58 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Whats the purpose of an uncirculated coin, 1 BTc is 1 BTc ??

Uncirculated fiat currency is worth more than circulated, I suppose some people feel the same about bitcoin, but I don't really get it. It's all just data, but some people pay more for things "just because".

I don't get it either, UN-circulated fiat currency have collectors which increase their price and its a physical thing which can be traded based on its rarity and condition but don't know why would some one pay more for freshly mined coins when old or new they're exactly the same.

For the same reason ppl pay for mixing services or in jointmarket. Freshly mined coins have no history, and provide greater privacy and anonymity. And there is market for such coins:
http://cointelegraph.com/news/114806/mint-exchange-service-for-newly-mined-coins-rebuffs-bitcoins-fungibility

bitbaby

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Quote from: Mikestang on January 06, 2016, 07:17:58 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Whats the purpose of an uncirculated coin, 1 BTc is 1 BTc ??

Uncirculated fiat currency is worth more than circulated, I suppose some people feel the same about bitcoin, but I don't really get it. It's all just data, but some people pay more for things "just because".

I don't get it either, UN-circulated fiat currency have collectors which increase their price and its a physical thing which can be traded based on its rarity and condition but don't know why would some one pay more for freshly mined coins when old or new they're exactly the same.

owm123

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Quote from: Mikestang on January 06, 2016, 07:17:58 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Whats the purpose of an uncirculated coin, 1 BTc is 1 BTc ??

Uncirculated fiat currency is worth more than circulated, I suppose some people feel the same about bitcoin, but I don't really get it. It's all just data, but some people pay more for things "just because".

Its not only about this. Because if you can differentiate two bitcoins from each other, censorship and blacklisting of certain bitcoins are possible.

Andreas Antonopoulos explains that to avoid this:

Quote

"we really need to address the issue of fungibility. Blacklists are inherently evil, as they seed control to the author of the blacklist and that control is absolute.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak1iojpiHpM&feature=youtu.be&t=33m6s

Mikestang

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Whats the purpose of an uncirculated coin, 1 BTc is 1 BTc ??

Uncirculated fiat currency is worth more than circulated, I suppose some people feel the same about bitcoin, but I don't really get it. It's all just data, but some people pay more for things "just because".

owm123

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Whats the purpose of an uncirculated coin, 1 BTc is 1 BTc ??

Its not really the case that 1btc == 1 btc, becasue bitcoin has weak fungability. This means that some bitcoin are "distinguishable". Thus mine 1 btc is different then yours 1 btc. This can lead to blacklists of certain bitcoins, if they are found to be related with crime. Its slowly starting to be a problem, for example,
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3mea6b/bitpay_is_blacklisting_certain_bitcoins_rejecting

Core Bitcion devs are aware of this problem: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6568 :

Quote

Tightly linked to privacy is fungibility, an essential characteristic of a money like good. When coins are overly distinguishable and people find themselves feeling obligated to consult (likely centralized) blacklists before accepting coins the utility of Bitcoin as a money is reduced.

Adams Black lecture about this is good, if you interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dAdI3Gzodo

If need more, just google bitcoin fungability, and will find lots of articles about this problem, e.g.,
http://cointelegraph.com/news/113897/bitcoin-violates-the-principle-of-fungibility
http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-fungibility-essential/
https://www.weusecoins.com/adam-back-confidential-transactions/
http://bravenewcoin.com/news/the-bitcoin-big-bang-tracking-tainted-bitcoins

Off course mined bitcoins, have no history, thus no taint, and are cleanest. For this reason they are considered more valuable.

and many more

KenR

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They do sell it at higher prices and I guess these exchanges buy it .I honestly don't understand why would someone pay extra for it ? If you have to pay for a buyer ,he can't accept those coins as they are formerly new coins so he will give you a discount.Its all same anyway .

randy8777

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it could be that people want the freshly mined coins to maintain their privacy. but this can also be achieved by simply mixing the "not fresh" coins.

OROBTC

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Quote from: Erkallys on January 06, 2016, 06:31:22 AM

Personally I'd be ready to pay a premium for a fresh coin, but of course if the price is no more than +10% of the regular price. This has nothing to do with illegal activities (I don't care at all about that). That's more to tell you that you own an unique coin, that will surely have a really high value in a decade or so, when there will have a lot less coins put on the market each day.

Yes, Erkallys is on to something here. A scarcity value, especially after several years (after a couple of halvings, for example).

Even now, some American Gold Eagle (1 oz) coins are a little more scarce than others, there are buyers who pay more for some dates even though the gold bullion value is no different.

owm123

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Quote from: btcprospecter on January 06, 2016, 08:02:33 AM

The idea of tainted coins is something new to me. With learning more and more every day about bitcoin, the term tainted was something I had never thought of before I dont know what issue it would have because just like normal money there is a good chance it has being used for something illegal at some point and it is something I have never thought was a issues

Yes, normal maney also can be tainted. But for fiat, there is a law making fiat money fungible:
http://jpkoning.blogspot.co.id/2016/01/what-makes-money-special-lawyers.html

Quote

With money things are different. Each time a monetary instrument is transferred, its history is wiped clean. As long as the recipient accepts the money in good faith, the original owner of stolen dollars cannot make a claim for those dollars.

For now, there is no such law for Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency.

Raimonn

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Yes, there is people that wants a full bitcoin block freshly mined, and pay a plus for it. Why? Some times collectionist people, that likes it. They know that the real price is the same. One recently mined bitcoin has the same price of a used bitcoin.

davinchi

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Quote from: Erkallys on January 06, 2016, 06:38:50 AM

Quote from: Amph on January 06, 2016, 06:33:45 AM

i've always wonder are people willing to pay more for those coins?

it would be fun if there is a two kind of demand for bitcoin

I think this is a psychological effect. This way you can say that it YOUR Bitcoin, that no one on Earth ever used before you, that no one ever owned.

Interestingly you people are classifying some bitcoin under "collectible" category.
The rare things are usually priced higher than normal. So, it's fair to pay more for newly mined coins. This way Satoshi's hoardings have more worth than the market value.

btcprospecter

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The idea of tainted coins is something new to me. With learning more and more every day about bitcoin, the term tainted was something I had never thought of before I dont know what issue it would have because just like normal money there is a good chance it has being used for something illegal at some point and it is something I have never thought was a issues

owm123

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Quote from: piya0608 on January 06, 2016, 07:33:05 AM

HEY GUYS,
"how can you say that the coin is fresh or old". Each and every coin bearred value for something, it doesn't matter that it is old or new.

Actually it does meter, as it results in 1 btc != 1btc. This is recognized as a problem by bitcoin core developers:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6568

One quote from that link

Quote

Tightly linked to privacy is fungibility, an essential characteristic of a money like good. When coins are overly distinguishable and people find themselves feeling obligated to consult (likely centralized) blacklists before accepting coins the utility of Bitcoin as a money is reduced.

And with the advent of blockchain analysis techniques like this one:
http://bravenewcoin.com/news/the-bitcoin-big-bang-tracking-tainted-bitcoins

this problem might get worse.

Topic: Is there a market for "fresh" coins? - page 2. (Read 2411 times)