Sometimes I have discussions with people thinking that BTC is a waste of energy and we should stick to FIAT instead.
Even if the computation of hashes is useful it is also bad for the ecology.
I think it would be interesting know which of these two systems is wasting more energy - FIAT or BTC?
Probably I (or we) would have (another) argument against FIAT.
Topic: Is there any research being done to make the blockchain less energy consuming? - page 2. (Read 3006 times)
November 19, 2017, 12:30:30 PM
November 19, 2017, 08:54:13 AM
I know you cannot compare costs with energy directly but if you take into account that we talking about only a part of the FIAT energy costs and this only for EUR, it could turn out that BTC uses less energy than FIAT ...
Why. Does. It. Even. Matter.
It doesn't. BTC hashrate is doing something useful, and innovatively so.
If someone can give some valid reasoning as to why using less energy for a task that depends on energy intensity is a good idea, I'd be genuinely interested to hear it.
November 19, 2017, 07:35:33 AM
According to the ECB the total cost of fiat money production, fiat money storage and fiat money transportation are
roughly 1 % of the total economic output of the European union each year, which equates to roughly 140 billion € at the moment.
roughly 1 % of the total economic output of the European union each year, which equates to roughly 140 billion € at the moment.
Thank you for this.
So, for this part of FIAT (only for EUR) they (or we?) pay 1.4 bln €
According to https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption the global mining costs are $1.433 bln USD.
I know you cannot compare costs with energy directly but if you take into account that we talking about only a part of the FIAT energy costs and this only for EUR, it could turn out that BTC uses less energy than FIAT ...
November 19, 2017, 07:15:13 AM
The one in the best position to supplant proof of work is called “proof of stake.”
It is still possible to reduce this huge energy consumption by adopting proof-of-stake algorithm where coin owners create blocks rather than miners instead of proof-of-work.
It's unlikely that you could convince Bitcoiners to fork to PoS.
But even if you could, this is a genuinely free market; some Bitcoiners would reject a proof-of-stake fork regardless of how convincing anyone's PoS rhetoric is. And because this is a market for cryptocurrencies, and because no PoS design has been shown to compete with PoW, we'd be right back where we are now really.
November 19, 2017, 06:18:38 AM
...
It would be interesting to learn how much energy is spent for FIAT, incl. producing bills, transportation to ATM, production of ATMs, heating for offices of banks etc.
It would be interesting to learn how much energy is spent for FIAT, incl. producing bills, transportation to ATM, production of ATMs, heating for offices of banks etc.
The statistic that you are looking for is probably not available, because the energy costs are occurring at too many different levels of
the system. However, the total costs in terms of money are published by the European Central Bank.
According to the ECB the total cost of fiat money production, fiat money storage and fiat money transportation are
roughly 1 % of the total economic output of the European union each year, which equates to roughly 140 billion € at the moment.
However, even if Bitcoin mining is more energy intensive the enormous benefits (an asset that has properties of sound money) are preferable
to our current monetary system.
November 19, 2017, 05:54:58 AM
The funny thing is that a single bitcoin transaction can roughly devour 5,000 times more than a typical credit card payment.
With "Devour" you mean devour energy, yes? Do you have a link for this number 5,000 times?
It would be interesting to learn how much energy is spent for FIAT, incl. producing bills, transportation to ATM, production of ATMs, heating for offices of banks etc.
November 19, 2017, 01:14:44 AM
The reality is that we are probably stuck with energy-guzzling cryptocurrencies, at least for a while. In the meantime, maybe true believers would be wise to invest their digital coins in renewable electricity sources.
The one in the best position to supplant proof of work is called “proof of stake.” Whereas proof of work rewards participants for spending computational resources, blockchains that use proof of stake would select validators based in part on the size of their respective monetary deposits—their stake. This would be massively more energy efficient, but the concept is still unproven at a large scale and has a number of kinks that need working out.
The one in the best position to supplant proof of work is called “proof of stake.” Whereas proof of work rewards participants for spending computational resources, blockchains that use proof of stake would select validators based in part on the size of their respective monetary deposits—their stake. This would be massively more energy efficient, but the concept is still unproven at a large scale and has a number of kinks that need working out.
November 19, 2017, 01:01:23 AM
At market equilibrium, the expected benefit (revenue) from Bitcoin and other PoW mining would be roughly equal to the expected cost (including electric power cost).
A downside to proof-of-stake systems is that it is a "rich get richer" system: Only people who already have a lot of the currency have a decent chance of getting a block reward of more currency. PoW is more egalitarian: Anyone can buy a mining rig, and they don't need to compete proportional to the currency holdings of whales but only proportional to their investment in mining (hardware + electricity).
A downside to proof-of-stake systems is that it is a "rich get richer" system: Only people who already have a lot of the currency have a decent chance of getting a block reward of more currency. PoW is more egalitarian: Anyone can buy a mining rig, and they don't need to compete proportional to the currency holdings of whales but only proportional to their investment in mining (hardware + electricity).
if it was true then less people would put their coins at stake and it would become more profitable
November 18, 2017, 03:06:30 PM
At market equilibrium, the expected benefit (revenue) from Bitcoin and other PoW mining would be roughly equal to the expected cost (including electric power cost).
A downside to proof-of-stake systems is that it is a "rich get richer" system: Only people who already have a lot of the currency have a decent chance of getting a block reward of more currency. PoW is more egalitarian: Anyone can buy a mining rig, and they don't need to compete proportional to the currency holdings of whales but only proportional to their investment in mining (hardware + electricity).
A downside to proof-of-stake systems is that it is a "rich get richer" system: Only people who already have a lot of the currency have a decent chance of getting a block reward of more currency. PoW is more egalitarian: Anyone can buy a mining rig, and they don't need to compete proportional to the currency holdings of whales but only proportional to their investment in mining (hardware + electricity).
November 18, 2017, 06:55:16 AM
if heaters become computers and people start mining from home, part of the energy consumed by hash computation will be recycled.
Oh that's not allowed in this thread, you can't use energy to do something useful under any circumstances! Cold people must run on the spot wearing heavy clothes, or move to a warmer region of the world! (energy cannot be used to move there of course, using energy is bad!)
November 17, 2017, 07:04:54 PM
Some people think PoS is the answer, as it will provide confirmations with no extra energy consumptions.
I would argue that energy consumption is a feature, not a bug. That it is necessary and that if a blockchain isn't PoW, it isn't a blockchain.
Energy consumption required to solve cryptographic puzzles on Bitcoin blockchain is what ties the technology to the real world.
It is what gives people an identity, it is what stops spamming and gives people an incentive to reach a consensus.
If you don't consume extra energy that serves no other purpose, then you don't have physical incentives to reach a consensus.
You don't spend energy on a vote, which means there might be no real person behind such a vote.
Energy consumption is the only reasonable way to tie physical to virtual, but either way, a certain physical consumption is necessary to insure physical beings are controlling a virtual currency.
I would argue that energy consumption is a feature, not a bug. That it is necessary and that if a blockchain isn't PoW, it isn't a blockchain.
Energy consumption required to solve cryptographic puzzles on Bitcoin blockchain is what ties the technology to the real world.
It is what gives people an identity, it is what stops spamming and gives people an incentive to reach a consensus.
If you don't consume extra energy that serves no other purpose, then you don't have physical incentives to reach a consensus.
You don't spend energy on a vote, which means there might be no real person behind such a vote.
Energy consumption is the only reasonable way to tie physical to virtual, but either way, a certain physical consumption is necessary to insure physical beings are controlling a virtual currency.
Perhaps what we need is to make use of the power consumption...by mining with our heaters.
November 17, 2017, 05:29:33 PM
blablabla
you have to compare energy per transaction
November 17, 2017, 04:59:38 PM
Decentralization of mining looks like a promising track for R&D: if heaters become computers and people start mining from home, part of the energy consumed by hash computation will be recycled.
However, censorship resistance stems from the thermodynamic barrier to update the blockchain.
This kind of optimization would actually weaken censorship resistance.
However, censorship resistance stems from the thermodynamic barrier to update the blockchain.
This kind of optimization would actually weaken censorship resistance.
November 17, 2017, 08:51:58 AM
How much surplus electricity are generated globally? Example : https://www.qewc.com/qewc/en/index.php/qewc/77-gulf-times/105-2700mw-of-surplus-electricity-produced
Exactly, Bitcoin mining is commonplace in regions where electricity surpluses (and correspondingly cheap prices) exist.
However, the overriding point here is simple:
Blockchains use energy for hashing. More hashpower is better than less, because it's more secure.
Sorry OP, but that's the end of your thread. If you want to do it a different way, go right ahead, but asserting everyone is wrong without providing any reasoning is a one-way ticket to creating your own cryptocurrency that subscribes to your vision.
November 17, 2017, 02:14:29 AM
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You haven't explained why energy consumption is such a problem for you.
because i have a consciousness and many hesitant adopters too
because economically btc transactions cost way more in electricity than their fees and btc owners pay them all indirectly
sorry I thought all these were obvious
Many of these "hesitant adopters" are being brainwashed by mainstream media. Have they ever considered how much electricity are being used by PayPal or Credit card companies and even Banks, compared to Bitcoin. Here we are not just talking about the electricity to hash or process the transactions.
These companies will quickly respond to media queries and tell them that their mainframes are only using a fraction of the processing power than what BTC is using, but they do not include the hidden "operating" cost. They have several offices and these offices have air-conditioning and lightning and lifts and coffee machines and photo copiers and printers and computers and I can go on and on. < Compare that to some of these mining farms, where they have one or two buildings with 3 to 5 people running the operation >
If you want to compare, then you have to compare Apples with Apples. ^smile^
The Bitcoin blockchain currently consumes more energy than the total consumption of the state of Ireland. The total energy consumption of even a concern-size company, even including energy consumers like airconditioning, heating, lifts, coffee machines and photocopiers, will be FAR below this.
~Wiebe-Marten
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You haven't explained why energy consumption is such a problem for you.
because i have a consciousness and many hesitant adopters too
because economically btc transactions cost way more in electricity than their fees and btc owners pay them all indirectly
sorry I thought all these were obvious
Many of these "hesitant adopters" are being brainwashed by mainstream media. Have they ever considered how much electricity are being used by PayPal or Credit card companies and even Banks, compared to Bitcoin. Here we are not just talking about the electricity to hash or process the transactions.
These companies will quickly respond to media queries and tell them that their mainframes are only using a fraction of the processing power than what BTC is using, but they do not include the hidden "operating" cost. They have several offices and these offices have air-conditioning and lightning and lifts and coffee machines and photo copiers and printers and computers and I can go on and on. < Compare that to some of these mining farms, where they have one or two buildings with 3 to 5 people running the operation >
If you want to compare, then you have to compare Apples with Apples. ^smile^
The Bitcoin blockchain currently consumes more energy than the total consumption of the state of Ireland. The total energy consumption of even a concern-size company, even including energy consumers like airconditioning, heating, lifts, coffee machines and photocopiers, will be FAR below this.
~Wiebe-Marten
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Remember Bitcoin is the alternative to many companies < PayPal / Banks / Master Card / VISA / Western Union / MoneyGram > so you have to take into account their combined electricity consumption, compared to Bitcoin operations. The idea is to replace them with a improved alternative.
All of these companies have branches in every city and town.
How much electricity are used to manufacture fiat currencies? < Mining the resources and creating coins & paper money? and how many trees are cut down to manufacture the paper they use in these offices >
How much surplus electricity are generated globally?
November 16, 2017, 03:48:34 PM
^smile^
keep smiling because you're funny November 16, 2017, 05:46:10 AM
research is being carried out every time and second
November 16, 2017, 05:38:17 AM
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You haven't explained why energy consumption is such a problem for you.
because i have a consciousness and many hesitant adopters too
because economically btc transactions cost way more in electricity than their fees and btc owners pay them all indirectly
sorry I thought all these were obvious
Many of these "hesitant adopters" are being brainwashed by mainstream media. Have they ever considered how much electricity are being used by PayPal or Credit card companies and even Banks, compared to Bitcoin. Here we are not just talking about the electricity to hash or process the transactions.
These companies will quickly respond to media queries and tell them that their mainframes are only using a fraction of the processing power than what BTC is using, but they do not include the hidden "operating" cost. They have several offices and these offices have air-conditioning and lightning and lifts and coffee machines and photo copiers and printers and computers and I can go on and on. < Compare that to some of these mining farms, where they have one or two buildings with 3 to 5 people running the operation >
If you want to compare, then you have to compare Apples with Apples. ^smile^
The Bitcoin blockchain currently consumes more energy than the total consumption of the state of Ireland. The total energy consumption of even a concern-size company, even including energy consumers like airconditioning, heating, lifts, coffee machines and photocopiers, will be FAR below this.
~Wiebe-Marten
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You haven't explained why energy consumption is such a problem for you.
because i have a consciousness and many hesitant adopters too
because economically btc transactions cost way more in electricity than their fees and btc owners pay them all indirectly
sorry I thought all these were obvious
Many of these "hesitant adopters" are being brainwashed by mainstream media. Have they ever considered how much electricity are being used by PayPal or Credit card companies and even Banks, compared to Bitcoin. Here we are not just talking about the electricity to hash or process the transactions.
These companies will quickly respond to media queries and tell them that their mainframes are only using a fraction of the processing power than what BTC is using, but they do not include the hidden "operating" cost. They have several offices and these offices have air-conditioning and lightning and lifts and coffee machines and photo copiers and printers and computers and I can go on and on. < Compare that to some of these mining farms, where they have one or two buildings with 3 to 5 people running the operation >
If you want to compare, then you have to compare Apples with Apples. ^smile^
The Bitcoin blockchain currently consumes more energy than the total consumption of the state of Ireland. The total energy consumption of even a concern-size company, even including energy consumers like airconditioning, heating, lifts, coffee machines and photocopiers, will be FAR below this.
~Wiebe-Marten
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November 16, 2017, 02:04:54 AM
You haven't explained why energy consumption is such a problem for you.
because i have a consciousness and many hesitant adopters too
because economically btc transactions cost way more in electricity than their fees and btc owners pay them all indirectly
sorry I thought all these were obvious
Many of these "hesitant adopters" are being brainwashed by mainstream media. Have they ever considered how much electricity are being used by PayPal or Credit card companies and even Banks, compared to Bitcoin. Here we are not just talking about the electricity to hash or process the transactions.
These companies will quickly respond to media queries and tell them that their mainframes are only using a fraction of the processing power than what BTC is using, but they do not include the hidden "operating" cost. They have several offices and these offices have air-conditioning and lightning and lifts and coffee machines and photo copiers and printers and computers and I can go on and on. < Compare that to some of these mining farms, where they have one or two buildings with 3 to 5 people running the operation >
If you want to compare, then you have to compare Apples with Apples. ^smile^
November 15, 2017, 05:08:58 PM
Hope the energy thing doesn't drive miners into guilt and force them to come up with strange ideas in the name of mining with little or no energy.
I kind of see mining as the engine room of Bitcoin network where difficult problems are solved and new Bitcoins are created. Engine rooms/factories typically require heavy work and consume lots of energy.
Maybe one day someone with lots of time will help calculate the Amount of energy used by Oil Companies, Phone manufacturers, Facebook, Bitcoin Network, in relation to the X amount of profits they make per month. This will help determine the true nature of energy consumption by companies in comparison to the that of Bitcoin Network.
I kind of see mining as the engine room of Bitcoin network where difficult problems are solved and new Bitcoins are created. Engine rooms/factories typically require heavy work and consume lots of energy.
Maybe one day someone with lots of time will help calculate the Amount of energy used by Oil Companies, Phone manufacturers, Facebook, Bitcoin Network, in relation to the X amount of profits they make per month. This will help determine the true nature of energy consumption by companies in comparison to the that of Bitcoin Network.
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