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Topic: Is this concerning? (Read 6333 times)

legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
May 10, 2013, 08:49:40 AM
#75
Been posted a million times. There's also plenty of scenario's where bubbles have worked out fine. No one posts them though.

Well.... That's because they were not bubbles, or they simply did not burst yet

+1, a bubble always bursts, that's why it's called a bubble! If water suddenly became rare, the price could jump to $1,000,000 per gallon and still not be a bubble.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
May 09, 2013, 06:19:17 PM
#74
Been posted a million times. There's also plenty of scenario's where bubbles have worked out fine. No one posts them though.

Well.... That's because they were not bubbles, or they simply did not burst yet
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
May 09, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
#73
Been posted a million times. There's also plenty of scenario's where bubbles have worked out fine. No one posts them though.

edit: 500 ;o
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 09, 2013, 04:32:53 PM
#72
You forgot to point that you added in the underlined part. Good try.

I said FTFY. Should I have written a comprehensive list about what I changed to the sentence? Does the word "financial" change the the point of the sentence at all (that the price of gold in modern times is almost wholly driven by manipulation)?  Come on, you are just nitpicking now.



But yeah, I'm sure gold is heavily manipulated. Not sure what that has to do with our discussion about gold compared to bitcoin.

Manipulated markets are the only real thing BTC and gold have in common, and all the hype about btc being "just like digital gold" is unfounded.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
May 09, 2013, 01:59:08 PM
#71

The portion of gold's price derived from it's "industrial" or financial uses is minuscule in comparison to the arbitrary value it has due to its "monetary" and "store of value" uses. rampant price manipulation by the banks.

FTFY

Most of the speculative rise with golds price has to do with Peak Gold which is supposed to happen in 2020. Now what happened is that gold futures (which can include gold yet to be mined) piled up to such an extent that it became questionable that the Peak is really 2020, not rather some time later, which can very probable the case.
If you tell a Gold Bug this you can get similarly hostile answers as with a Bitcoiner, but the responses aren't as funny.  Wink
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 08, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
#70

The portion of gold's price derived from it's "industrial" or financial uses is minuscule in comparison to the arbitrary value it has due to its "monetary" and "store of value" uses. rampant price manipulation by the banks.

FTFY
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
May 08, 2013, 07:45:18 PM
#69
Every crash looks the same, what matters is the difference, otherwise everyone will be able to make perfect predictions.

I will leave it to you to find out where the differences are.

Every crash looks the same?  I could not disagree more.  Actually, every crash looks very different.  Anyone who compares charts between entirely different asset classes and "bubbles" will eventually find matches.  That has absolutely nothing to do with predicting the future exchange rate of BTC.  All that it means is that with a large enough sample you will eventually find a chart that matches.  It is complete random chance, nothing more. 

In the stock market, technical analyis does work sometimes, but the only reason it works is because enough people follow it to make is work.  Otherwise, the past does not predict the future.   




+1
hero member
Activity: 955
Merit: 1002
May 08, 2013, 11:29:20 AM
#68
Cool.  Gold has held value for over thousands of years.  If the bitcoin "bubble" lasts that long, I think we will all be pretty happy.

Gold has a lot of utility beyond a store of value, though (jewelry, electronics, medicine, dentistry, chemical catalyst, etc, etc) which is why it has retained its value for thousands of years.  

BTC is useless beyond being a currency or speculative commodity.

I don't think they are really very comparable at all (beyond what I mentioned a couple posts up).

The utility of gold is irrelevant - plastic has better utility, but it's not stable and it's easy to destroy.
Gold is immutable - you fashion the gold into a wedding ring, she dies, and 4000 years later they discover her burial mound, and the gold is still there intact.
But her iphone has long since corroded, along with her beauty and the wonderful life we spent once together - the places we went - those quiet glances of mutual knowing - that radiance that only those who have really experienced true love can ever know. All gone.
(obviously I'm talking about other people's wives - mine's a bitch)

hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 08, 2013, 10:24:47 AM
#67
Cool.  Gold has held value for over thousands of years.  If the bitcoin "bubble" lasts that long, I think we will all be pretty happy.

Gold has a lot of utility beyond a store of value, though (jewelry, electronics, medicine, dentistry, chemical catalyst, etc, etc) which is why it has retained its value for thousands of years.  

BTC is useless beyond being a currency or speculative commodity.

I don't think they are really very comparable at all (beyond what I mentioned a couple posts up).
sr. member
Activity: 348
Merit: 250
May 08, 2013, 10:14:00 AM
#66
It's actually very similar (but superior) to gold.

A highly overinflated price driven by hype, fear, and speculation and is also prone to heavy market manipulation?

Yeah, I'd say that BTC is similar to gold in that respect.

Cool.  Gold has held value for over thousands of years.  If the bitcoin "bubble" lasts that long, I think we will all be pretty happy.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
daytrader/superhero
May 08, 2013, 10:04:05 AM
#65
It's actually very similar (but superior) to gold.

A highly overinflated price driven by hype, fear, and speculation and is also prone to heavy market manipulation?

Yeah, I'd say that BTC is similar to gold in that respect.
sr. member
Activity: 348
Merit: 250
May 08, 2013, 09:58:19 AM
#64
Or simply that bitcoin is different than any other speculative asset?

This is exactly what people here actually believe. Just a month ago, every other thread was talking about bitcoin being the "new paradigm" (yes, people used those exact words), and how bitcoin was different from every other speculative tool/investment.

Nope.  Bitcoin isn't different from every other speculative investment.  It's actually very similar (but superior) to gold.


I'm pretty sure if you adjust the dates and zoom in just right you can fit the current bitcoin "bubble crash" into the '79 - '82 part of the gold graph.
full member
Activity: 120
Merit: 100
May 08, 2013, 09:28:08 AM
#63
Every crash looks the same, what matters is the difference, otherwise everyone will be able to make perfect predictions.

I will leave it to you to find out where the differences are.

Every crash looks the same?  I could not disagree more.  Actually, every crash looks very different.  Anyone who compares charts between entirely different asset classes and "bubbles" will eventually find matches.  That has absolutely nothing to do with predicting the future exchange rate of BTC.  All that it means is that with a large enough sample you will eventually find a chart that matches.  It is complete random chance, nothing more. 

In the stock market, technical analyis does work sometimes, but the only reason it works is because enough people follow it to make is work.  Otherwise, the past does not predict the future.   


legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1003
May 08, 2013, 08:55:47 AM
#62
Remember this, guys?



Now look at this:



Now, at what point do you think we are?

We are at 120 where we were at 12 on the down slope of 2011... By this conclusion, someone can expect it could go down to 20 before uptrend to 2500.

My point of view is that it is the worst case scenario, and I've hard time imagining such a low of 20.  Bitcoin are way more evolve compared to 2011.. 20 seems almost impossible, except for a  long list of really bad thing happening to BTC in the next year.

I buy as I can below 100, and dont want to sell any under 1000, even 2000...

BTC under 50 is part of history,
BTC under 100 are real bargain cheap coin, and are rare occasion

I've bought a lot under 100, and sold much over 200

I'll buy alot under 1000, and sell only some over 2000 !

-- Perma-bull


+1



Hey guys, I'm OP's alt account, I can't believe you are all so stupid for falling for my failtroll FUD trick! Classic graph comparison, oldest trick in the book! Here's how it's done:

1) Take graph of classic bubble anatomy; include labels.

2) Take graph of BTC up to and following April crash.
     
      2a) Zoom out 300%
     
      2b) Pan as far left as possible so it looks like very little price action occurred following BTC bubble compared to real estate bubble.


You'll notice that now, the zoom/pan functions allowed me to make it appear as if the price action following the BTC crash, which is actually nearly identical to the "classic bubble anatomy graph," is insignificant and we are still going to crash down to $2, the "Real bottom." If you zoom back in and pan so that the segments of space with little price action before the crash are actually comparable (rather than a ridiculously unforgivable amount of zero action displayed on the leftmost 3/4 of the BTC graph compared to almost none of the real estate graph) you'll see that we've already hit most of the points in the "bubble graph." Yes, denial, yes, "new normal," yes, "real bottom" and we are right around "real capitulation."

Now I'm actually a schizo with MPD, so don't tell my other half (the real OP on my alt account) that I gave out his secrets or his hopes of using the speculation subforum to talk down the price will be completely shot.

Sorry OP, I know I can be an unforgivable asshole. For the record, I don't think you actually went into GIMP and did all this, nor do I think you're a troll trying to talk down the price. I just think it's funny that you present two graphs as comparable simply because they both have a 1y timescale, when the amount of insignificant pre-bubble price action is like 3/4 on one of the charts and almost none on the other chart. I might be an unforgiveable asshole but THAT is unforgivable chart-fail Grin Grin Grin

It seems like every other week the denizens of Bitcointalk learn this very important lesson: Using the zoom/pan function (or, the original image compilers using this function and an innocent yet passively complicit bystander such as Razick posting it) you can make any graph look like any other graph. Why don't I just shove up a graph of AAPL with it's inverse double bottom and say we're going back to $260 in a couple days?

I did not pan at all, it's a one year chart from blockchain.info that includes ALL data as of yesterday. The anatomy of a bubble was made elsewhere and if you actually read my posts, there have been some other charts posted suggesting that the full "cycle" is just about over and I agreed that that was likely.

Quote
I know I can be an unforgivable asshole. For the record, I don't think you actually went into GIMP and did all this

Yea, pretty much, and I didn't. I was set to go all in at the price of $102 since I'm actually somewhat bullish at that price, but I saw this chart elsewhere and noticed the similarities to the 1 year chart. I didn't even make a claim about it, I asked for people's opinions with the title "Is this concerning"

Quote
nor do I think you're a troll trying to talk down the price.

You may not, but responding to my other critics who do, that is a completely idiotic statement: Yea, I might be able to save $0.00000001 per Bitcoin after my minuscule influence is priced in. I even said in an interview quite mildly that "I wouldn't be surprised if prices declined ... [but] ... long term I expect prices much higher than the $266 peak" and got similar responses. Yea--that will drive down the price.

Funny how in the Bitcoin forums you can't even be a cautious bull, like me, you have to be a raging lunatic bull: "$1,000,000/BTC by May 31!!!"  Roll Eyes

----

TL:DR Thoughtful individuals, see the charts and draw your own conclusions.
legendary
Activity: 1615
Merit: 1000
May 08, 2013, 06:48:55 AM
#61
It's not concerning but expected.

Why is that? The picture above, especially the "final capitulation" seems so final, as if Bitcoin wouldn't recover or proceed to higher highs after that.

Like the "final capitulation" from the 2011 crash was final?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
"Don't go in the trollbox, trollbox, trollbox"
May 08, 2013, 05:24:41 AM
#60
I see a classic bear turd forming.
full member
Activity: 204
Merit: 100
May 08, 2013, 04:40:09 AM
#59
Keep in mind Gox being down for a week after the crash in 2011 skews the charts. The price stayed at $20 because there was no point trading on the other exchanges - why dump your coins in an almost empty order book when you can just wait for gox to open up again and try to be the first to dump ? (I remember fishing the bottom at $14.5 back then, but I made sure to sell again after the recovery) If you remove that period there is no triangle anymore, the price just went down, down, down pretty consistently, lower bottoms everywhere, with selloffs and their bounces up.
There was no historical data at that time to try and predict what the bottom would be - people thought maybe bitcoin was just doomed to fail and would go back to < $0.1 like it had been for most of its existence. Today even the lowest exponential trendline sets us up to about $20 a coin. There will be immense buying pressure if we even get near that price again, only satoshi dumping his stash could bring the price down to single digits. Unless something in the fundamentals changes of course, like a catastrophic protocol failure, 51% attack, enforced govt ban... but then it will be an instant death.

If you look at the August 2012 bubble it also looks very similar, and we all know it didn't work out so badly.
Or the price action after the $1.99 capitulation compared to the crash to $50.
Or maybe you are right we're just at the beginning of a long and painful slide down. Who knows.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
May 08, 2013, 04:30:40 AM
#58
All I see is a bull pendant forming.

Looks more like a medallion to me.

I make out a wet pig being flogged by the purple canopy when i use astro-bulgarian fishstick patterns...


I think you zoomed out too far man O_O
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
May 08, 2013, 04:21:29 AM
#57
All I see is a bull pendant forming.

Looks more like a medallion to me.

I make out a wet pig being flogged by the purple canopy when i use astro-bulgarian fishstick patterns...


I like you!

Anyway, I called up, let's see Smiley.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
May 08, 2013, 03:03:48 AM
#56
All I see is a bull pendant forming.

Looks more like a medallion to me.

I make out a wet pig being flogged by the purple canopy when i use astro-bulgarian fishstick patterns...
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