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Topic: is trollcoin (bytecoin) unwittingly the solution to bitcoins scalability issue? - page 4. (Read 7349 times)

legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
RUM AND CARROTS: A PIRATE LIFE FOR ME
So the logic goes something like this: A single blockchain can not be expected to service the needs of 7 billion consumers. We can not possibly be expected to store every transaction every time some random guy anywhere in the world buys a couple of bannanas or a pack of gum.

That's why bitcoin has implemented ultra-prune. Problem solved. Besides, bitcoin won't be used by all 7 billion, just like the USD isn't even used by all 7 billion.

As for the pack of gum- the whole point is to store every transaction. If you don't then there's no point anyway. Bitcoin will handle it just fine.

One option is centralization. Essentially instead of using bitcoin clients ourselves we would all have accounts with banking institutions that store huge amounts of bitcoin and when we make a transaction between two banks it would be recorded off blockchain. The blockchain in this scenario would be used like a clearing house to clear debts between these banking institutions once they become large enough. This could work but i dont think i need to point out the drawbacks.

Alternatively we could embrace multiple blockchains. This would maintain that precious decentralization at the cost of de-homoginization. In my mind the recent ddos attacks on mtgox demonstrate that decentralization is more important than homogeneity and so in my mind multiple blockchains is the better of the two options.

now if we accept for the sake of discussion that multiple blockchains are infact the better option than i say why not simply make carbon copies of bitcoin as it becomes necessary to do so? Sure some might argue, why not atleast ATTEMPT to innovate but attempting to innovate for the sake of it and not because you have a legitimately great idea on how to improve bitcoin (yes im talking about all existing alt coins) than really you are just opening yourself up to a world of possible bugs and problems for very little advantage. Not only that but you need a separate development team for each blockchain. Bitcoin is familiar it, it has been vetted, it works great, i say dont mess with a good thing unless you have a really good reason to do so, which i don't see as being the case.

So what do you guys think? I know this may sound like a bit of a false dichotomy fallacy because there are some other proposals out there such as chaum banks but again the centralization opens them up to attack. I have not yet seen any other way to solve the scalability problem with out resorting to centralization other than multiple blockchains. If it is the case that multiple blockchains is the best solution than do you guys see any reason why the second and third blockchain shouldnt be carbon copies? atleast until someone thinks of some way to legitimately improve upon bitcoin.
newbie
Activity: 32
Merit: 0
This is an interesting idea, however, if we agree that the solution to the scalability issue is multiple chains, would it not be more useful to manage all of those out of a single client?  Could the chains be established differently enough that you could force people to choose which chain (if any) to mine on?

Thinking the same way my wallet today can hold ones, fives, tens, twenties, and (rarely) hundreds.  It seems a more useful resolution would be to extend the Bitcoin client to support perhaps spinning up a new chain every N months (basically, we plan to create new, lower denominations which are fractional in value to the existing one).
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
Quote
is trollcoin (bytecoin) unwittingly the solution to bitcoins scalability issue?

Bitcoin devs failed to solve the scalability issue. Maybe Bytecoin is not a brilliant solution but it's, at least, a quite good one.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Copy/paste from a discussion in the Bytecoin thread:

"why not tackle a few issues" the way i see it the scalability problem is bitcoins only issue. And yes there is a scalability problem, right now bitcoin users store every bitcoin transaction in the world on their computers, if 7 billion people were using bitcoin we couldnt be expected to record every time anyone anywhere in the world purchased a couple of bananas or a pack of gum.

Which is a design issue that could be fixed in a much cleaner way than "Hey I got an idea, let's just copy and paste the whole source tree!"


The fallacy here, in my mind, is that Bitcoin (and BillyBobCoin and InsertPersonsNameHereCoin and TotallyDifferentFromBitcoinCoin and whatever other name Bitcoin carbon copies will have) all share the same flaw. And your proposed solution to fix this - as far as I can infer - is to start completely anew, rather than solve the problem properly. It doesn't sit well in my mind and there has to be a more elegant solution.


My apologies in advance if I've misinterpreted anything, by the way.

oh no i agree it would be very nice if we could just solve that problem. Just no one has been able to figure that one out, atleast that is without resorting to increased centralization. Perhaps someone could invent a cryptocurrency where users are responsible for storing all of the data about their own transactions and the blockchain simply used to store a means for proving that your record of your own transactions is accurate.

technically speaking i have NO idea how or if something like this could be done but i digress.



I'd hardly call BTE a proper "solution", but more of a "stepping stone" to get to a proper solution. Avoiding over-centralization is what makes this issue a complicated (and interesting) challenge.

+1
sr. member
Activity: 271
Merit: 250
Copy/paste from a discussion between Anon136 and I in the Bytecoin thread:

"why not tackle a few issues" the way i see it the scalability problem is bitcoins only issue. And yes there is a scalability problem, right now bitcoin users store every bitcoin transaction in the world on their computers, if 7 billion people were using bitcoin we couldnt be expected to record every time anyone anywhere in the world purchased a couple of bananas or a pack of gum.

Which is a design issue that could be fixed in a much cleaner way than "Hey I got an idea, let's just copy and paste the whole source tree!"


The fallacy here, in my mind, is that Bitcoin (and BillyBobCoin and InsertPersonsNameHereCoin and TotallyDifferentFromBitcoinCoin and whatever other name Bitcoin carbon copies will have) all share the same flaw. And your proposed solution to fix this - as far as I can infer - is to start completely anew, rather than solve the problem properly. It doesn't sit well in my mind and there has to be a more elegant solution.


My apologies in advance if I've misinterpreted anything, by the way.

oh no i agree it would be very nice if we could just solve that problem. Just no one has been able to figure that one out, atleast that is without resorting to increased centralization. Perhaps someone could invent a cryptocurrency where users are responsible for storing all of the data about their own transactions and the blockchain simply used to store a means for proving that your record of your own transactions is accurate.

technically speaking i have NO idea how or if something like this could be done but i digress.



I'd hardly call BTE a proper "solution", but more of a "stepping stone" to get to a proper solution. Avoiding over-centralization is what makes this issue a complicated (and interesting) challenge.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
Unwittingly, or intentionally?

now if we accept for the sake of discussion that multiple blockchains are infact the better option than i say why not simply make carbon copies of bitcoin as it becomes necessary to do so?

I've been saying for awhile that this should be done.  One reason I've got behind Terracoin so firmly is that it is so similar to Bitcoin.  Until Bytecoin, Terracoin fit the "alternative blockchain" role the best.

I think a new blockchain started at every reward halving would be ideal.  This potentially solves a lot of problems, including scalability and divisibility.  The best answer to "how do you subdivide a Satoshi?" may very well be "Exchange it for coins on a newer blockchain."

thanks murray block.

I think I see what you did there. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Unwittingly, or intentionally?

now if we accept for the sake of discussion that multiple blockchains are infact the better option than i say why not simply make carbon copies of bitcoin as it becomes necessary to do so?

I've been saying for awhile that this should be done.  One reason I've got behind Terracoin so firmly is that it is so similar to Bitcoin.  Until Bytecoin, Terracoin fit the "alternative blockchain" role the best.

I think a new blockchain started at every reward halving would be ideal.  This potentially solves a lot of problems, including scalability and divisibility.  The best answer to "how do you subdivide a Satoshi?" may very well be "Exchange it for coins on a newer blockchain."

thanks murray block. im glad to see that im not the only person thinking along these lines. Now we just have to fight to make sure this thing doesn't die in the next 2 weeks!
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
Unwittingly, or intentionally?

now if we accept for the sake of discussion that multiple blockchains are infact the better option than i say why not simply make carbon copies of bitcoin as it becomes necessary to do so?

I've been saying for awhile that this should be done.  One reason I've got behind Terracoin so firmly is that it is so similar to Bitcoin.  Until Bytecoin, Terracoin fit the "alternative blockchain" role the best.

I think a new blockchain started at every reward halving would be ideal.  This potentially solves a lot of problems, including scalability and divisibility.  The best answer to "how do you subdivide a Satoshi?" may very well be "Exchange it for coins on a newer blockchain."
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
So the logic goes something like this: A single blockchain can not be expected to service the needs of 7 billion consumers. We can not possibly be expected to store every transaction every time some random guy anywhere in the world buys a couple of bannanas or a pack of gum.

One option is centralization. Essentially instead of using bitcoin clients ourselves we would all have accounts with banking institutions that store huge amounts of bitcoin and when we make a transaction between two banks it would be recorded off blockchain. The blockchain in this scenario would be used like a clearing house to clear debts between these banking institutions once they become large enough. This could work but i dont think i need to point out the drawbacks.

Alternatively we could embrace multiple blockchains. This would maintain that precious decentralization at the cost of de-homoginization. In my mind the recent ddos attacks on mtgox demonstrate that decentralization is more important than homogeneity and so in my mind multiple blockchains is the better of the two options.

now if we accept for the sake of discussion that multiple blockchains are infact the better option than i say why not simply make carbon copies of bitcoin as it becomes necessary to do so? Sure some might argue, why not atleast ATTEMPT to innovate but attempting to innovate for the sake of it and not because you have a legitimately great idea on how to improve bitcoin (yes im talking about all existing alt coins) than really you are just opening yourself up to a world of possible bugs and problems for very little advantage. Not only that but you need a separate development team for each blockchain. Bitcoin is familiar it, it has been vetted, it works great, i say dont mess with a good thing unless you have a really good reason to do so, which i don't see as being the case.

So what do you guys think? I know this may sound like a bit of a false dichotomy fallacy because there are some other proposals out there such as chaum banks but again the centralization opens them up to attack. I have not yet seen any other way to solve the scalability problem with out resorting to centralization other than multiple blockchains. If it is the case that multiple blockchains is the best solution than do you guys see any reason why the second and third blockchain shouldnt be carbon copies? atleast until someone thinks of some way to legitimately improve upon bitcoin.
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