Isn't bitcoin too SLOW to be called "instantaneous"? - page 2.

VishwaJay

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Quote from: josvazg on April 08, 2013, 10:47:19 AM

It is because I find bitcoin interesting that I am here.

A bit of auto-critic won't hurt the community, but the absolute lack of it may...

You say that as if you're the first to bring it up...

Here, some other stuff that people have brought up: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths

Really, you're treating this as if nobody's ever thought critically about it in their lives.

JoelKatz

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Quote from: theblazehen on April 08, 2013, 02:14:26 PM

It woul'd technically be possible. Look at litecoin which uses 3 minutes instead of 10 minutes.

That just means you get less valuable confirmations. The value of a confirmation lies in the number of hashes behind it. If you produce confirmations three times as often, they each represent only one-third as many hashes, so you need three times as many of them. It does, however, reduce the time to the first confirmation. So it can speed up low value transactions.

theblazehen

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It woul'd technically be possible. Look at litecoin which uses 3 minutes instead of 10 minutes.

M2NY

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on April 08, 2013, 12:14:17 PM

Still Bitcoin is a low level protocol. It is highly likely that as long as Bitcoin continues to grow higher level services will be built on top of them including off blockchain transactions which can be guaranteed within seconds.

Thank you, that's what I was thinking to post while reading along the whole thread... I know that many Bitcoin fans have a different opinion about this, but I think we should really see Bitcoin as virtual cash or gold. It has the same characteristics as cash or gold (if you disregard that fiat money is being printed by central banks continuously) -- except that it is virtual and thus very easy to transfer and not completely instantaneous.

But the important thing is that just like cash, Bitcoin is low-level -- nobody is preventing anyone from providing higher-level services on top of Bitcoin, i.e. instant payment services. And these services don't have to become a centralized system -- just less decentralized than a real peer-to-peer network: there can be many instant payment providers without any central organization controlling them.

Btw, I also believe that Bitcoin has to become a bit less decentralized: if Bitcoin continues to grow that dramatically there is no other way than establishing Bitcoin provider businesses/services (like online wallets). A typical end-user won't be able to handle the traffic and resource usage of the Bitcoin network -- these tasks have to be transferred to providers. The no-trust system doesn't work in this big world -- it will be always necessary to trust some companies to provide some services. And as long the system is not fully centralized this is no problem at all.

WishIStartedSooner

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on April 08, 2013, 12:14:17 PM

Aren't credit cards too slow to be considered instaneous? Merchant isn't sent funds for 48 hours and funds can be taken back up to 180 days.
Both BTC and CC provide notification of a transaction within a few seconds. BTC are confirmed in ~1 hour, CC are confirmed in 2 to 180 days. Trying to execute a double spend in person in an environment where one can't guarantee execution time (like grocery store checkout line) is incredibly difficult. Stolen credit cards can easily be bought online for far less trouble.

This is the point I was trying to make.

Matthew N. Wright

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"BitInstant". Everything is relative.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Aren't credit cards too slow to be considered instaneous? Merchant isn't sent funds for 48 hours and funds can be taken back up to 180 days.
Both BTC and CC provide notification of a transaction within a few seconds. BTC are confirmed in ~1 hour, CC are confirmed in 2 to 180 days. Trying to execute a double spend in person in an environment where one can't guarantee execution time (like grocery store checkout line) is incredibly difficult. Stolen credit cards can easily be bought online for far less trouble.

Still Bitcoin is a low level protocol. It is highly likely that as long as Bitcoin continues to grow higher level services will be built on top of them including off blockchain transactions which can be guaranteed within seconds.

BitcoinGirl325

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Quote from: josvazg on April 08, 2013, 10:57:24 AM

Quote from: WishIStartedSooner on April 08, 2013, 08:35:22 AM

My credit/debit card isn't instantaneous.

In fact it takes 2-3 days to post.

I'd say bitcoin kicks the shit out of it.

Yeah right, try to buy in a supermarket or a restaurant. You can't wait 1h in a queue!

It won't happen, even if bitcoin success grows those use cases will still be out of its reach...unless it updates itself.

I was trying to discuss a fix, nobody discuses my design proposal, instead only say they don't need it...
ok fine!

It wouldn't so strange that tomorrow a new cryptocurrency arrives that gives you all that bitcoin does (it may start as a clone) and also gives you instant assured decentralized payments and your bitcoin suddenly is not the best available option.

Think a mixtere of ripple and bitcoin. That can happen inside bitcoin or ouside of it.
Which one do you prefer?

I personally think it's better inside than having to change cryptocurrency all over again.

Bitcoin is still in its infancy. As of TODAY, it is too slow for retail transactions like a grocery store. But if Bitcoin continues to gain acceptance, there will soon be a whole ecosystem built around Bitcoin. I can see merchant processing companies that will step in and fill the gap, to help process retail transactions instantly... and these companies will carry some burden of liability & insurance on their shoulders. It's really too early to tell what the Bitcoin landscape is going to look like in 5 years. Remember that when credit cards first started, merchants had to carry a printed, physical book that was updated every few weeks, that listed all the credit card numbers that shouldn't be accepted! Crazy, right? But that's how it was at the beginning. Of course, the credit card companies would honor the transaction for the merchant as long as the number wasn't listed in the book, so that was the merchant's protection. Someone will come along and offer the same sort of merchant protection for Bitcoin. That's assuming that Bitcoin becomes viewed as a legitimate form of currency by the mainstream, and not just a hoarding mechanism for speculative investors.

krncoolwater

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Quote from: josvazg on April 08, 2013, 04:04:57 AM

The first selling point of bitcoin at bitcoin.org is:

"Instant peer to peer transactions"

But "1hour" to get at least 6 confirmations doesn't seem instantaneous to me, does it?

VISA-like transactions, that is 5-15 seconds, is what people regard as "instantaneous".

I don't get it. So please explain.

Imagine bitcoin gets popular:

1) You go to the supermarket or the bakery and pay with bitcoins...

2) You wait 1hour before you can go home???!!
Conclusion, will you never be able to use bitcoins on physical shops or when payment needs to be REALLY instantaneous?

---
Another thing that is terribly slow is opening your wallet to take a look at it. If your wallet is on your pc, and you power it down every night at least, it takes 5-10minutes "to look what is inside your wallet".

That is TOO slow and also consumes too much disk space to be used on mobile phones!

---
I think those the problems comes from the block chain design and the mining.

Don't get me wrong, bitcoin chain mining incentives, its security design and all make a lot of sense and its what makes bitcoin appealing; totally decentralized, limited coin supply, etc.

BUT, at the same time it seems the 10minute cycle, which is perfect for mining, is TOO bad for transactions.

Transactions usually are:
- Lightweight.
- Really instantaneous (<20seconds in the worst case)
- Once confirmed, they should not be reversible.

I know that bitcoin claims that transactions are NOT reversible, but that is also a half truth: only when the transaction is "quite" re-confirmed, it can be trusted have actually happened.

Please, let me know what I am missing.
How is bitcoin handling or will handle this issues?
I think these are really important to get right, specially if bitcoin ever grows up to be widely used just like VISA or paypal.

Should bitcoin provide a separate non-mining (not awarded) block chain for instant transactions (probably with bigger fees, although much smaller than traditional paypal or visa ones)?

The idea is that you create bitcoins just as you do now. It is ok to wait some hours or days for a new bitcoin balance to be "assured", but then you can move that balance to an "instant payment account" that will make transactions on a separate block chain designed for instant payments.

That block chain is just like the mining one, but it is just not rewarded with mining, or it is rewarded with just a really small mining prize with a very easy POW that can be solved in 2-3seconds by the current bitcoin network power. Transactions that go there are confirmed in 12 to18seconds... THAT is instant payments!

What problems do you see in this approach?

Yes, definitely...I also noticed if you want your btc faster there's always more fees involved--not good as our incomes already gets taxed. Its double taxation and dont even get me started on the rigged stock market! LOL

josvazg

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Quote from: WishIStartedSooner on April 08, 2013, 08:35:22 AM

My credit/debit card isn't instantaneous.

In fact it takes 2-3 days to post.

I'd say bitcoin kicks the shit out of it.

Yeah right, try to buy in a supermarket or a restaurant. You can't wait 1h in a queue!

It won't happen, even if bitcoin success grows those use cases will still be out of its reach...unless it updates itself.

I was trying to discuss a fix, nobody discuses my design proposal, instead only say they don't need it...
ok fine!

It wouldn't so strange that tomorrow a new cryptocurrency arrives that gives you all that bitcoin does (it may start as a clone) and also gives you instant assured decentralized payments and your bitcoin suddenly is not the best available option.

Think a mixtere of ripple and bitcoin. That can happen inside bitcoin or ouside of it.
Which one do you prefer?

I personally think it's better inside than having to change cryptocurrency all over again.

josvazg

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It is because I find bitcoin interesting that I am here.

A bit of auto-critic won't hurt the community, but the absolute lack of it may...

WishIStartedSooner

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My credit/debit card isn't instantaneous.

In fact it takes 2-3 days to post.

I'd say bitcoin kicks the shit out of it.

VishwaJay

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Quote from: josvazg on April 08, 2013, 07:33:43 AM

So basically everybody here says Bitcoin as of today is SO perfect and doesn't need ANY improvement.
Not even if, being so perfect, it gets much more successful than it is now!

Very interesting...

I am know remembering that phrase from Mr Wolf at Pulp Fuction:
"let's not start sucking each other's d... quite yet."

What I find interesting is that you continue to act like a troll (not that you are one, mind, but that several troll-ish behaviors are evident).

You take what is said and twist it out of proportion, out of context, and attempt a reducto-ad-absurdum dismissal to whatever anyone says.

You aren't satisfied with Bitcoin... so don't invest! Nobody's twisting your arm. You don't have a gun to your long-lost aunt Esmerelda's head while someone tells you: "So hop on de phone an' make a deposit."

Seriously, you aren't really trying to see any perspective but your own.

You want someone to pay for telling you it's instantaneous... the funds are instantaneously started, but unlike a bank there is no trust because there is security.

josvazg

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It is not, for its current user base and use cases... but it might be soon if it is more successful...
and it is most certainly "NOT instantaneous", saying that would be a lie.

Keimoasd

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I don't find bitcoin too slow at all.

FenixRD

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I am Citizenfive.

Quote from: josvazg on April 08, 2013, 07:33:43 AM

So basically everybody here says Bitcoin as of today is SO perfect and doesn't need ANY improvement.
Not even if, being so perfect, it gets much more successful than it is now!

Very interesting...

I am know remembering that phrase from Mr Wolf at Pulp Fuction:
"let's not start sucking each other's d... quite yet."

Lol. No, not perfect, at least not for everything. And there are still plenty of unknowns. We're in uncharted waters here... But, it is so far more or less the most perfect Bitcoin that has ever been. :p And, comparatively, it is also perfect enough that things have been only built to complement it, not replace or make obsolete. (LTC is "fairly stable", and Ripple as mentioned is one idea out there. They solve problems people WISH Bitcoin solved, but are fundamentally incompatible with Bitcoin -- in this case, primarily speed.)

SHA256 could get exploited tomorrow, for all we know. But even then I have a fair amount of faith that the dev team can patch in a replacement quick enough that it will only tank the exchanges for a day or so. It's definitely something they've discussed a bit.

jamesrom

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It's actually really hard to fake even one confirmation, and unless you are transferring large amounts of btc then it's almost pointless.

Zerial

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No. It's perfect! Grin

josvazg

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So basically everybody here says Bitcoin as of today is SO perfect and doesn't need ANY improvement.
Not even if, being so perfect, it gets much more successful than it is now!

Very interesting...

I am know remembering that phrase from Mr Wolf at Pulp Fuction:
"let's not start sucking each other's d... quite yet."

FenixRD

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I am Citizenfive.

Newbie adding to post count, blah blah been here forever regardless of what my timer / registration timestamp says.

Zero-conf transactions are fine if you are in a store, in person, and can show ID. If I were a merchant I'd accept that. I have means to seek restitution if the transaction fails. That takes seconds. Multiple confirmations are only necessary when anonymity is required, and/or the amount is large enough that it is reasonably worth it to attempt a "f2f con". So, buying a car, even with a gov ID, I'd still wait 3 - 6 or more confirmations, as a dealer, if the only identifying docs were your driver license or something. Luckily an hour isn't much time for buying a car... plenty of paperwork to do...

Instant AND anonymous requires some form of escrow / middleman / insurance setup. You know, like Silk Road already provides its userbase (unless you refuse to use it like an idiot).

Then there are things springing up like Ripple for quick, smaller transactions.

Cheers, welcome to bitcoinland.

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