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Topic: Isn't deflation a bad thing? - page 2. (Read 2090 times)

sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
August 29, 2013, 12:30:23 PM
#29
Deflation is a good thing. It means wealth is being created.

You want deflation. It's easier to solve the $.01 = the cost of a ferrari than it is to solve the $100,000,000 = a loaf of bread problem.


Why would it be a problem if bread costs $100,000,000?
Everyone would have more much than that, and you can pay with a credit card.
sr. member
Activity: 370
Merit: 250
August 29, 2013, 12:28:42 PM
#28
Deflation is a good thing. It means wealth is being created.

You want deflation. It's easier to solve the $.01 = the cost of a ferrari than it is to solve the $100,000,000 = a loaf of bread problem.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
August 29, 2013, 12:17:42 PM
#27
Debt based currency is flawed in longterm. That is why we have economic crisis, this is too much unstable.


And what do you propose if you want to buy a car, house, ... ?


The same way people bought house before banks was invented
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
August 29, 2013, 11:59:33 AM
#26
Debt based currency is flawed in longterm. That is why we have economic crisis, this is too much unstable.


And what do you propose if you want to buy a car, house, ... ?
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
August 29, 2013, 11:27:22 AM
#25
The thing is debt based currency works longterm only with inflation.


Debt based currency is flawed in longterm. That is why we have economic crisis, this is too much unstable.
full member
Activity: 122
Merit: 100
August 29, 2013, 11:14:00 AM
#24
The thing is debt based currency works longterm only with inflation.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
--------------->¿?
August 29, 2013, 11:07:57 AM
#23
The problem is more the debt base currency rather than inflation itself.
A debt base currency is forcing the society to produce crap and garbage contently to pay back our never ending and growing debt.
legendary
Activity: 1240
Merit: 1001
Thank God I'm an atheist
August 29, 2013, 07:44:32 AM
#22
Why are we talking about deflation?

Deflation can happen if bitcoins completely replace dollars, euros... I don't think this will ever happen.


full member
Activity: 190
Merit: 100
August 29, 2013, 07:38:02 AM
#21
Quote
Isn't deflation a bad thing?
NO

Good contribution!
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
August 29, 2013, 07:30:25 AM
#20
Quote
Isn't deflation a bad thing?
NO
full member
Activity: 190
Merit: 100
August 29, 2013, 07:23:04 AM
#19
Again - where exactly did I say people in Africa should not have a computer (or anywhere else for that matter)?

You are basically trolling now so I am unwatching the topic as it is pointless to continue.


Just ignore him if you want to. I agree, I don't see why deflation and spending less has anything to do with Africans not having computers.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
August 29, 2013, 06:23:04 AM
#18
Deflation is bad when you need a society to spend spend spend so you, the government, can collect all that tax money to put to whatever use you want.  If deflation causes your citizens to spend less, you garner less tax money, and having less money to play with is bad; how would you pay for all those tanks, then?  So maybe you pay a guy here and a guy over there to propagandize the dangers of a deflationary currency and why a currency which is better spent right right now (unless you want to feel the effects of inflation) is the only way we can continue our way of life, for if we lived with a deflationary currency (such as the gold-backed dollar), businesses would collapse, chaos would ensue, rioters would flood the streets and the terrorists would win etc. etc. (except this never happened with the gold-backed dollar.)

Deflationary currencies mean more money to the individual; you're not only more likely to conserve your cash, but you're rewarded for conserving by having more money to play with as time goes on, so you can spend your cash on even bigger things, like starting a business of your own.  There's more incentive to properly manage your funds and spend only when it's wise to do so.  The idea that people would rather starve than spend their deflationary money is absurd; and in either case, whether the money is inflationary or deflationary, it is worthless if it is never spent, so the idea that the economy would fail is also absurd, for the very point of money is a middle-man between the point that you do work and the point where you buy something, and nobody wants to live in rags just to say they're a millionaire.

There's also the (massive) bonus of governments being unable to tax through inflation.  Just a thought.

Let's consider the hypothetical negative effect of deflation: the deflationary spiral.

Quote
A deflationary spiral is a situation where decreases in price lead to lower production, which in turn leads to lower wages and demand, which leads to further decreases in price.

First, we must assume that, in the example of gasoline, when gas is lowered from $3.50 to $0.35 over several years, the businesses which put the gas on the market are selling at a loss.  Unless we're also assuming that businesses are stupid, we can safely assume that, if gasoline is priced at $0.35, the businesses surrounding gasoline are still making hefty profits; because the currency is worth much more now than it was in the past, $0.35 would be a good amount of cash, more than enough to operate a business, and in the case of gasoline, we simply cannot get enough of the stuff, which means it's still being produced, brings me to the next point: supposedly, this causes lower wages and demand.  Now, since people have more money in their pocket, and people still really want to go places, they're still dropping tons of cash into purchasing gasoline.  This means the businesses surrounding gasoline are not only taking in all that cash, but the cash they do have is also deflating, resulting in yet more cash for the individual.  Although a person may be paid $4 an hour one year, but several years later may make $3 an hour, remember, the money is deflating, and thus, $3 of today could've been closer to $5 those years ago; in any case, if the business is improving, they have more opportunities to pay more people higher wages, or if the business isn't doing so well, the opposite will happen; whether the currency is inflationary or deflationary can't fix bad business.

So as we can see, a deflationary currency would cause lower prices, but would not cause lower production--it may even increase production, as the individual will have more money over time to spend on what they love--this would, in turn, possibly lead to even higher (comparatively) wages, and with higher wages, e.g. more money to spend, you could see more businesses sprouting, with a money that won't deteriorate over time, and the cycle continues.

We clearly see a conflict of interest here: with a deflationary currency, especially one largely out of the control of government hands, wealth and power flow toward the individual; with an inflationary currency, especially one in control of government hands, wealth and power flow toward the government (and this is especially clear, as I pointed out above, when government inflates as a hidden tax.)  At that point, it's all up to you; if you like big government, a tightly controlled inflationary currency is perfect, and if you prefer small/no government, a money like Bitcoin is perfect.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
August 29, 2013, 05:37:04 AM
#17
So basically if disagreeing with you make me trolling, I kindly agree that we should stop the discussion now. Bye.


You explicitly stated that you wish that there was a deflation, slowing down on production and consumption. Which obviously leads to preventing access to computers to African countries, even if you did not state it explicitly.




And you are editing your posts after I answer you, so you are misleading.... Not to mention that you only answer to part of what I am saying, and taking it out of context, lol.


I'm just saying that deflation is not a bad thing, and it is regulating the economic, but it should stay temporary. You can produce houses now that can produces more energy and electricity that they need. You can produce efficiently, to provide comfort to anyone, and you don't have to produce less if you want to reduce global warming.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
August 29, 2013, 05:28:42 AM
#16
And if you have a computer, why would you think that African people should not have one? Seems selfish.

Again - where exactly did I say people in Africa should not have a computer (or anywhere else for that matter)?

You are basically trolling now so I am unwatching the topic as it is pointless to continue.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
August 29, 2013, 05:26:28 AM
#15
I was in Chine 2 weeks ago, and I could hardly breathe after a couple of days (Shenyang) ...
I think that some period of deflation can be good to regulate, but should not be permanent. And if you have a computer, why would you think that African people should not have one? Seems selfish.




http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/why-is-deflation-bad/?_r=0

There are actually three different reasons to worry about deflation, two on the demand side and one on the supply side.

So first of all: when people expect falling prices, they become less willing to spend, and in particular less willing to borrow.  (...)

legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
August 29, 2013, 05:19:57 AM
#14
saving the environment is not antagonist with inflation. You can produce a lot, and do it in a nice and environment-friendly way.

You will help the environment *more* by producing *less* (although producing more environmentally friendly products is of course a better idea).

On the other hand, you can stop producing, hyper-deflation, and ruin the environment by stopping maintaining Nuclear facilities and spreading dangerous chemical material in the world ....

Firstly I never mentioned that we should *stop* producing and secondly keeping things in good repair is *exactly* what people that are good at saving already do (you should come and visit China - you'd be surprised how people are proud of having years old devices that still work well because they are constantly being repaired).

+ you can't buy only food to live. You still need to have some hobbies...

Please re-read my posts to see how silly that remark is.

If your major intent here is just to try and win an argument with misquoting, exaggeration and other tactics then I will just stop watching - if you really have an interest to discuss something then I will continue to post.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
August 29, 2013, 05:06:16 AM
#13
Economists are quite famous for a) never agreeing with each other and b) being unscientific.

You'd be better off ignoring anything an economist has to say.



Still, you did not answer the other parts:
saving the environment is not antagonist with inflation. You can produce a lot, and do it in a nice and environment-friendly way.
On the other hand, you can stop producing, hyper-deflation, and ruin the environment by stopping maintaining Nuclear facilities and spreading dangerous chemical material in the world ....


+ you can't buy only food to live. You still need to have some hobbies...
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
August 29, 2013, 05:03:54 AM
#12
I do more think that it is our overpopulation that is the root problem - and not the production. The production is a "derivative" of over-population. A few generations with a global 1 child pr family is what we need to stop the overconsumption.

Certainly overpopulation is responsible for a huge proportion of the world's current problems and understand that in the most populated countries (China and India) the main reason for wanting more than two children is that the parents typically depend upon their children for *money* to look after them when they are old.

When you have *money* that gets worth more then there is less incentive to want more than 1 or 2 children (as any money spent on them would just be wasted if they died or decided not to support you later).
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
August 29, 2013, 05:00:10 AM
#11
Even wikipedia, which is objective, describes deflation as a bad thing (according to most economists).

Economists are quite famous for a) never agreeing with each other and b) being unscientific.

You'd be better off ignoring anything an economist has to say.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
August 29, 2013, 04:59:37 AM
#10
You might like or want to live in a cavern like they did xxxxx years ago, without electricity, without phones, computer and modern comfort. But I don't. No matter what I waste.

I am not interested in living in a cavern and of course being a software engineer I will still be making the occasional purchase of computer hardware and using the internet.

Slowing down our production and consumption != going back to the stone age (but it could help to save many species on our planet including our own).


I do more think that it is our overpopulation that is the root problem - and not the production. The production is a "derivative" of over-population. A few generations with a global 1 child pr family is what we need to stop the overconsumption.

But inflation/deflation can both be good and evil. But the USA does no longer report the real inflation figures - they have setup their own "pseudo" values so things that impact inflation a lot - are just not measured any longer in the official figures. So real inflation/deflation is "hard" to spot.
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