Issues with contact less payments. - page 2.

stompix

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Quote from: exstasie on March 03, 2019, 05:58:28 PM

Americans are happy with credit cards because they're incredibly convenient and as a consumer, nothing can ever go wrong. If anything goes wrong (fraud, incorrect charges) the bank or the merchants eat the losses, not us. And we get up to 5% cash back rewards for using credit cards. It's win-win-win for consumers. Why wouldn't we be happy with them, LOL?

Wow, you seriously believe that? Do you think merchants and card companies are taking the loss and not increasing fees per transactions and final price of the product?
It's like insurance, cheap if you don't drive Tongue

, once you go out in the city 3 accidents in 6 years and you're in the next class, the price goes from 210 euros to 450.

Quote from: exstasie on March 03, 2019, 05:58:28 PM

I basically never use my debit card, ever, because if it gets fraudulently used, it's much harder to claw back the money (if possible at all) than with a credit card. Inputting my PIN number all over town, in questionable POS/ATM machines? I would never do that! Not to mention the risk of dealing with dishonorable merchants. With a credit card, I can instantly charge back. Debit cards have much less favorable policies and they don't give cash back.

I've been using credit cards every day, everywhere, for 20+ years. I've seen a fraudulent charge a grand total of one time. My bank instantly reversed the charges, reissued the card and I never heard about it ever again. The whole issue is being blown out of proportion.

Debit cards are not different at all from credit cards here if we speak on how they work.
Both have pins, both have customer protection, with both you can seek a refund in 45 days, the only difference is that you can spend more than you have when it comes to credit.

For example, I own 1 Mastercard credit (for times I find a good deal and low on funds) and 1 Visa debit contactless at ING (day to day purchases) and another Citi Visa debit (for internet purchases), I was forced to ask for refunds on all of them, all were solved in less than 7 days and I haven't yet run into a situation where there was an unknown charge in any of my accounts.

Quote from: exstasie on March 03, 2019, 05:58:28 PM

Inputting my PIN number all over town, in questionable POS/ATM machines? I would never do that! Not to mention the risk of dealing with dishonorable merchants.

So your far better and safer without the PIN....sorry but I can't find any logic in this.

Johnyz

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There’s a risk on having a contact less card since many hackers are more high tech now and they can actually scammed you. There are some wallet that they can block this trasaction, the rfid blocking system of the wallet i think. You also need to make sure that you are using your card in the right way, contact less just improve the transaction but the risk is still the same.

exstasie

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Quote from: 1Referee on March 03, 2019, 05:47:22 PM

Quote from: stompix on March 03, 2019, 11:25:22 AM

Also, about the guy embracing you in the subway and scanning your wallet with a mysterious instrument..., I tried a year or so ago in an afternoon to pay with the cards still in my wallet. I knew well the cashier and I was the only one in the shop otherwise obviously I wouldn't have done it but I still coudn't manage to get a confirmation even with my wallet sitting on top of the PoS scanner.

Same here. I have a leather wallet and it just doesn't want to register my card through the wallet. I have to take it out each time.

Quote from: stompix on March 03, 2019, 11:25:22 AM

But, speaking about cards, I'm amazed how Americans are still happy with their no PIN number card.
Seriously, we're afraid of somebody trying to scan your cc with hi-tech stuff inches away from you for 50euros a day while other are giving the card to the waiter and hope they will be charged correctly...

Exactly. I never understood that either. Not one single person around me ever had a problem with theft or fraud with their tap2pay debit cards, while those with credit cards (yep, it's also a thing here in Europe) haven't done anything but complain about fraudulent charges. I don't even understand how the issuers of these credit cards still allow this to happen. It shouldn't be possible to settle payments without a PIN in any amount.

A PIN for any purchase? Why? That seems like complete overkill.

Americans are happy with credit cards because they're incredibly convenient and as a consumer, nothing can ever go wrong. If anything goes wrong (fraud, incorrect charges) the bank or the merchants eat the losses, not us. And we get up to 5% cash back rewards for using credit cards. It's win-win-win for consumers. Why wouldn't we be happy with them, LOL?

I basically never use my debit card, ever, because if it gets fraudulently used, it's much harder to claw back the money (if possible at all) than with a credit card. Inputting my PIN number all over town, in questionable POS/ATM machines? I would never do that! Not to mention the risk of dealing with dishonorable merchants. With a credit card, I can instantly charge back. Debit cards have much less favorable policies and they don't give cash back.

I've been using credit cards every day, everywhere, for 20+ years. I've seen a fraudulent charge a grand total of one time. My bank instantly reversed the charges, reissued the card and I never heard about it ever again. The whole issue is being blown out of proportion.

1Referee

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Quote from: stompix on March 03, 2019, 11:25:22 AM

Also, about the guy embracing you in the subway and scanning your wallet with a mysterious instrument..., I tried a year or so ago in an afternoon to pay with the cards still in my wallet. I knew well the cashier and I was the only one in the shop otherwise obviously I wouldn't have done it but I still coudn't manage to get a confirmation even with my wallet sitting on top of the PoS scanner.

Same here. I have a leather wallet and it just doesn't want to register my card through the wallet. I have to take it out each time.

Quote from: stompix on March 03, 2019, 11:25:22 AM

But, speaking about cards, I'm amazed how Americans are still happy with their no PIN number card.
Seriously, we're afraid of somebody trying to scan your cc with hi-tech stuff inches away from you for 50euros a day while other are giving the card to the waiter and hope they will be charged correctly...

Exactly. I never understood that either. Not one single person around me ever had a problem with theft or fraud with their tap2pay debit cards, while those with credit cards (yep, it's also a thing here in Europe) haven't done anything but complain about fraudulent charges. I don't even understand how the issuers of these credit cards still allow this to happen. It shouldn't be possible to settle payments without a PIN in any amount.

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Quote from: cellard on March 02, 2019, 12:33:56 PM

I've seen some of those contactless ATM on my city, and I have never used it because i've heard bad stories about it. Apparently banks have configured by default that you can withdraw X amount of fiat through the ATM with the contactless card only, without even asking for any passwords, so if you lost the card it's already too late, you are going to lose money. Luckily the amounts you can withdraw are limit but still it's a pain in the ass. Some banks have it at $50, others at $300 or more. There's people removing their chips from their debit cards. There are tutorials on how to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEhgf4PpRdo

Anything that allows to spend money without a password is just dumb, disable or remove it.

No, no, where have you seen that? You can withdraw money contactless with visa/master card, upi cards and etc. Yeah, the money you can withdraw is limited but it's not like put card and you'll withdraw. You don't need to enter pin but when you try to withdraw contractless, usually you receive sms in your mobile phone which you have to enter instead of pin. That's very great to be fair.
Also OP, yeah, you can get 16 number, expiry date and card name even from your smartphone if it has NFC support, even touching and one special app is enough for that but you can't get that three number that's placed on back.
Also if unexpected payment happens, banks will help you to get money back. Doesn't matter if happened to a lot of members at the same time because as we know similar thing had happened when amazon was hacked and everything was solved easily.

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Quote from: 1Referee on March 02, 2019, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: jackg on March 02, 2019, 01:30:52 PM

The limits don't matter if you can get a name and an expiry date and the long number as they can spe d whatever they want to.

Not sure what card you got, but that's certainly not possible with my debit card.

In case whatever hacker manages to clone my card, there is nothing the hacker can do other than to utilize the €50 24 hour limit, which I will be notified about anyway. In order to change the amount or unlock certain features to enjoy more freedom with my tap2pay card, you need a special code that can only be generated with my banking calculator (hardware device).

I'm pretty content with the security measures my bank offers me.

Yeah, it's the myth about managing to get all your data and clone your card with a simple scan.
It has been debunked hundreds of times but people still are afraid of it.

Also, about the guy embracing you in the subway and scanning your wallet with a mysterious instrument..., I tried a year or so ago in an afternoon to pay with the cards still in my wallet. I knew well the cashier and I was the only one in the shop otherwise obviously I wouldn't have done it but I still coudn't manage to get a confirmation even with my wallet sitting on top of the PoS scanner.

Besides ING offers a mobile cost control so usually, I get the message with the spent amount faster than the recipe is coming out of the machine Cheesy

.

But, speaking about cards, I'm amazed how Americans are still happy with their no PIN number card.
Seriously, we're afraid of somebody trying to scan your cc with hi-tech stuff inches away from you for 50euros a day while other are giving the card to the waiter and hope they will be charged correctly...

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on March 03, 2019, 05:02:08 AM

hasn't that always been an issue with credit cards? they've been offering 100% money back fraud guarantees for decades. i figure the banks cope by screwing the merchants, who have no choice but to eat the losses to keep business coming in.

or worst comes to worst, they'll probably get bailed out again. Cheesy

Yup it's a lot worse here in the UK compared to a lot of. Places because 6 banks account for 90% if people's money so they'll just get bailed out again and if they don't there's always the fscs crap.

Quote from: davis196 on March 03, 2019, 02:14:33 AM

If an unexpected card payment is made,you can always call your bank and ask for a chargeback...
If your coins are lost/stolen,they are lost forever...
This is waht stops mass crypto adoption.The lack of a chargeback system makes people scared that they will lose their coins.

It's an overreliance on banks that's the issue too. And actually, that credit card thing seems more of an incentive to get people to use credit cards over debit cards too.
They don't need any tactics to get the moment back anyway because it doesn't exist to start with lol.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: jackg on March 02, 2019, 11:16:10 AM

I was thinking yesterday (having recently got my new contact less card) how good the system was and how we don't need bitcoin (for money transfers) with this great system and I have since come to realise how awful they are.

I watched a video of a hacker being able to get ahold of people's long number, name and expiry date using the contact less part of the cards which is enough to spend money from them. Since banks say "if an unexpected payment gets made you won't lose any money" it makes me wonder what is going to happen if someone manages to dot enough card readers around and steal large sums of money from people then the banks wouldn't be able to cope.

hasn't that always been an issue with credit cards? they've been offering 100% money back fraud guarantees for decades. i figure the banks cope by screwing the merchants, who have no choice but to eat the losses to keep business coming in.

or worst comes to worst, they'll probably get bailed out again. Cheesy

davis196

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Quote from: jackg on March 02, 2019, 11:16:10 AM

I was thinking yesterday (having recently got my new contact less card) how good the system was and how we don't need bitcoin (for money transfers) with this great system and I have since come to realise how awful they are.

I watched a video of a hacker being able to get ahold of people's long number, name and expiry date using the contact less part of the cards which is enough to spend money from them. Since banks say "if an unexpected payment gets made you won't lose any money" it makes me wonder what is going to happen if someone manages to dot enough card readers around and steal large sums of money from people then the banks wouldn't be able to cope.

The 50 richest people together have just slightly less than all the money that exists. There are some foolish wealthy people out there too that might get scammed from this.

If an unexpected card payment is made,you can always call your bank and ask for a chargeback...
If your coins are lost/stolen,they are lost forever...
This is waht stops mass crypto adoption.The lack of a chargeback system makes people scared that they will lose their coins.

adaseb

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Are you guys referring to the Visa Paywave or the Mastercard Paypall contactless payments? If I recall those usually have a max limit of transactions per day and a max dollar value limit per transaction.

I also don't think you can go to an ATM and actually withdraw cash, its only for payments like at a grocery store or gas station. The limit is $100 CAD here in Canada. Anything over and it requires the pin.

pooya87

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Quote from: jackg on March 02, 2019, 11:16:10 AM

I was thinking yesterday (having recently got my new contact less card) how good the system was and how we don't need bitcoin (for money transfers) with this great system and I have since come to realise how awful they are.

i hope now you realize that bitcoin is not just about security, the main characteristics of bitcoin that makes it better than all of these other options is its decentralization. otherwise all these methods of payment can technically become just as secure as bitcoin with some effort but they still will remain centralized and it is always going to be the bank that controls your money and allows you to spend it and can decide not to do it some day...

YuginKadoya

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A sure thing people nowadays wants life to be easy and this piece of card is a breeze to use, by just tapping it to a sensor and you are good to go, But in the advancing world, hackers are also cooping up and the worst they are already ahead of the technology and this contactless card is pretty sure hackable, I am not used to this kind of things and prefer the use of non-digital ones to be safe from hackers just like when we stored bitcoin on cold wallets But the downside to these wallets is you can not make a direct transaction, Or I would prefer a cardless transaction instead.

1Referee

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Quote from: jackg on March 02, 2019, 01:30:52 PM

The limits don't matter if you can get a name and an expiry date and the long number as they can spe d whatever they want to.

Not sure what card you got, but that's certainly not possible with my debit card.

In case whatever hacker manages to clone my card, there is nothing the hacker can do other than to utilize the €50 24 hour limit, which I will be notified about anyway. In order to change the amount or unlock certain features to enjoy more freedom with my tap2pay card, you need a special code that can only be generated with my banking calculator (hardware device).

I'm pretty content with the security measures my bank offers me.

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 02, 2019, 01:07:54 PM

Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Umm.. nope.

The card in the bag takes about the same space in the wallet as the card used to take. I'm not good at explaining, just imagine in the image a bag inside each section and the cards inside the bags. I pull the cards out exactly in the same way as before and after 3-5 uses I also insert them back as I did before. And for paying I get the card out as I always did.
Imho the point with contactless payments is to not spend the time inserting/getting out the card from the POS + entering the PIN. I never put the whole wallet to the reader because I have more RFID cards (bank cards, transportation card, card for the the door at job).

jackg

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The limits don't matter if you can get a name and an expiry date and the long number as they can spe d whatever they want to.

I was hoping to get something chip less and be able to use my online banking app like how Google pay works but I don't want to use a Google related payment product.

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on March 02, 2019, 12:52:10 PM

Also, lately I've seen that there are RFID blocker bags for the cards, small enough to fit into the wallet.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 02, 2019, 12:36:25 PM

I've disabled it on all my cards.

at first I've disabled them too. One year later I've re-enabled them. It's convenient.
And the limit for contactless payments can be changed to something smaller. at least this happens with my main payment card.
Also, lately I've seen that there are RFID blocker bags for the cards, small enough to fit into the wallet.

I've bought some from Aliexpress, cheap and good, but probably you can find other sources where you don't have to wait for months for the products to arrive.

teilwalL05

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The only issue I see in Contactless cards are the limits the amount it had in a transaction I really think it is just good enough to make fast transactions only like when you are grabbing a meal or a coffee at Starbucks or fueling up your car, It makes sense because it can only accommodate transactions that are cheap and will not exceed the caps limit, Well I think that the card cannot be hack by hackers because it had a secure radio interface and the hacker will need to be on proximity to hack your card, If a technology like that exist, I really think the system on the banks is the one that will be attacked by hackers and not your limited Contactless card.

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Quote from: cellard on March 02, 2019, 12:33:56 PM

Anything that allows to spend money without a password is just dumb, disable or remove it.

I've disabled it on all my cards.

cellard

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I've seen some of those contactless ATM on my city, and I have never used it because i've heard bad stories about it. Apparently banks have configured by default that you can withdraw X amount of fiat through the ATM with the contactless card only, without even asking for any passwords, so if you lost the card it's already too late, you are going to lose money. Luckily the amounts you can withdraw are limit but still it's a pain in the ass. Some banks have it at $50, others at $300 or more. There's people removing their chips from their debit cards. There are tutorials on how to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEhgf4PpRdo

Anything that allows to spend money without a password is just dumb, disable or remove it.

Topic: Issues with contact less payments. - page 2. (Read 567 times)