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Topic: It costs $0.09 cents to send $0.24 cents of Bitcoin? Really? - page 4. (Read 7844 times)

legendary
Activity: 4228
Merit: 1313
This is one of the annoying things about Bitcoin and miners...greedy miners they are not required to charge a fee. the system is like capitalism and is prioritizing due to incentive something which is a flaw in our brains and basic philosophy.

The nice thing is that since you don't like it, you are free to fork the client and blockchain and do it the way you want.  Then you can see how many people agree with you, and we can see how it all works out.

Let us know when your fork is ready to go so we can see how well it works in practice, particularly since this is a coinbase fee vs a bitcoin fee.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 

http://dcmagnates.com/coinbase-out-to-solve-micro-payments-with-transactionless-transfers/

Right, Coinbase can definitely solve this problem and so can Bitpay.  If the major players team together and allow cross-micro-transactions than it is a solution.  It won't be true decentralization, but bitcoin itself will always be decentralized even if the players on top of it aren't.  Utlimately, is the Coinbase/Bitpay transactions in their own system an acceptable solution?

Of course it's acceptable. We aren't going to take over the world with micro-payments. If I want to tip you 25 cents because I liked your post I'm not helping crush big banks. The big banking establishments don't want my tiny transaction either. This is a solution to a problem that Bitcoin wasn't designed to handle. Clearly Bitcoin isn't for micro or nano payments.

It's electronic and digital. In theory processing a $.0001 transaction should be as difficult as processing a $1,000,000,000 transaction. I think it's a terrible shame bitcoin wasn't designed to handle any and everything.

I personally believe bitcoin won't take over the world without micro payments.  Because it can't that means a theoretical person in the morning will have to leave his house with two forms of cash, bitcoin for big, another for small. That is just really inefficient and silly.  Why would a payment system that wants to be revolutionary also be so limited?

I hear you. I'm not convinced that Bitcoin needs to or should be the only method of exchange. If Bitcoin was adopted by every country in the world gold and silver will still exist and be traded as currency.

I believe you will only need to leave your house with one electronic device and it will solve all of your financial demands. I used to leave my house with a wallet full of cards. My ATM card, credit cards, store discount cards, checks and cash all needed to be available if I needed them. If I stopped by ACE Hardware on the way home I need to have my ACE Rewards card with me. Now there's a phone app called Key Ring that holds all of my cards and it can be scanned at the register. Technology will solve this problem eventually.

Finally, micro-payments can be made with Bitcoin. They just aren't cost effective. So if you still want to make them you can. Nano-payments (or dust transactions) cannot currently be made with Bitcoin. If the need arises that feature could be switched back on but I seriously doubt it ever will be.

All things in life have limitations but some of us want some things to be all encompassing. Unfortunately, life just doesn't work that way.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
I personally believe bitcoin won't take over the world without micro payments.  Because it can't that means a theoretical person in the morning will have to leave his house with two forms of cash, bitcoin for big, another for small. That is just really inefficient and silly.  Why would a payment system that wants to be revolutionary also be so limited?

Bitcoin is to HTTP as Payment Channels are to CSS/Javascript/PHP.
Other technologies are being scaffolded upon bitcoin. There is too much momentum behind bitcoin so it is unlikely that any alt will be able to compete for the top tier unit of account.

Users can already make micro-payments for no charge with bitcoin from multiple sources.

 In the future there will be ways of doing so in a decentralized and anonymous manner. Their is nothing technically limiting this, the only reason it isn't being implemented now is because their isn't a large demand for it. To the end user it will all simply be a Bitcoin payment and they won't need to know the complex relationship between the bitcoin core protocol and a micro payment  treechain/sidechain channel .

The concerns in this thread that assume some intrinsic flaw within bitcoin as it cannot support micro payments are unfounded. It is better that high velocity micro transactions are handled within a sidechain/treechain or third party. Have you guys considered the strain on the network and blockchain bloat if trillions of 10 penny transactions were hitting the blockchain per day?
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Looking for the next big thing
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 

http://dcmagnates.com/coinbase-out-to-solve-micro-payments-with-transactionless-transfers/

Right, Coinbase can definitely solve this problem and so can Bitpay.  If the major players team together and allow cross-micro-transactions than it is a solution.  It won't be true decentralization, but bitcoin itself will always be decentralized even if the players on top of it aren't.  Utlimately, is the Coinbase/Bitpay transactions in their own system an acceptable solution?

Of course it's acceptable. We aren't going to take over the world with micro-payments. If I want to tip you 25 cents because I liked your post I'm not helping crush big banks. The big banking establishments don't want my tiny transaction either. This is a solution to a problem that Bitcoin wasn't designed to handle. Clearly Bitcoin isn't for micro or nano payments.

It's electronic and digital. In theory processing a $.0001 transaction should be as difficult as processing a $1,000,000,000 transaction. I think it's a terrible shame bitcoin wasn't designed to handle any and everything.

I personally believe bitcoin won't take over the world without micro payments.  Because it can't that means a theoretical person in the morning will have to leave his house with two forms of cash, bitcoin for big, another for small. That is just really inefficient and silly.  Why would a payment system that wants to be revolutionary also be so limited?
full member
Activity: 215
Merit: 100
Clearly, the current bitcoin isn't suitable for micro transactions. I think the network just can't handle the transaction volume, and having fees is one way of discouraging dust transactions.

The question is, should it?  And if so, why not fix it?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 

http://dcmagnates.com/coinbase-out-to-solve-micro-payments-with-transactionless-transfers/

Right, Coinbase can definitely solve this problem and so can Bitpay.  If the major players team together and allow cross-micro-transactions than it is a solution.  It won't be true decentralization, but bitcoin itself will always be decentralized even if the players on top of it aren't.  Utlimately, is the Coinbase/Bitpay transactions in their own system an acceptable solution?

Of course it's acceptable. We aren't going to take over the world with micro-payments. If I want to tip you 25 cents because I liked your post I'm not helping crush big banks. The big banking establishments don't want my tiny transaction either. This is a solution to a problem that Bitcoin wasn't designed to handle. Clearly Bitcoin isn't for micro or nano payments.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 

http://dcmagnates.com/coinbase-out-to-solve-micro-payments-with-transactionless-transfers/

Right, Coinbase can definitely solve this problem and so can Bitpay.  If the major players team together and allow cross-micro-transactions than it is a solution.  It won't be true decentralization, but bitcoin itself will always be decentralized even if the players on top of it aren't.  Utlimately, is the Coinbase/Bitpay transactions in their own system an acceptable solution?

i'm paying 0.0001 btc x tx
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Looking for the next big thing
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 

http://dcmagnates.com/coinbase-out-to-solve-micro-payments-with-transactionless-transfers/

Right, Coinbase can definitely solve this problem and so can Bitpay.  If the major players team together and allow cross-micro-transactions than it is a solution.  It won't be true decentralization, but bitcoin itself will always be decentralized even if the players on top of it aren't.  Utlimately, is the Coinbase/Bitpay transactions in their own system an acceptable solution?
sr. member
Activity: 319
Merit: 250
That's crazy, but small payments do cost a lot to send.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 

http://dcmagnates.com/coinbase-out-to-solve-micro-payments-with-transactionless-transfers/
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
Looking for the next big thing
The OP has correctly pointed out a flaw in Bitcoin. 

As a method of transferring money, it is not very flexible towards small amounts.  This is very unfortunate because small amounts make up a huge amount of transactions.  There is a whole market out there that bitcoin is immediately excluded from because it is not technologically advanced enough or designed well enough to be able to efficiently send small amounts. 

This is even more ridiculous when considering all the computers that are working towards mining, which in theory is suppose to mean supporting the network and processing transactions, but in reality because of the selfishness and greed of miners turns into actually ignoring transactions that don't have big enough fees attached to them. 

Bitcoin is a great system but also hasn't been designed perfectly. 
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
i don't know.... bu i'm paynig 0.0001 btc per tx.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
Is it something else?

Yes its the dumb ass like you dont understand the economic of bitcoin infrastructure. You can send btc with any amount as a fee. But that tx will not be confirmed for a very long time.

Micro payments are all relative. 25cents are way too small and unrealistic.

Its not a problem for blockchain to fix but its a service for a 3rd party.

if mining pools would simply accept the fact that they are rewarded with 25btc right now for their work and that extra fee's are something only needed in atleast 2 decades time and not now. then YOU will realise that the fee is not needed right now. and are given/ required, purely for greedy purposes

then in the uptopian dream of zero greed, bitcoin can be used for microtransactions without a large cut.

if mining pools would simply just accept transactions into blocks instead of ignoring them all the time, there would be no issues.

i personally have a client thats in the advertising business and would love to be able to send amounts of under 20c to people as often as he liked, rather then having to set monthly payouts or minimal account balance before payout.. he thought bitcoin was the solution.. yet the tx fee due to mining pool greed is the cause of why he wont get involved in bitcoin

People suck.

If there is ZERO fee then some people will send spam transactions and fill the network with junk as a DOS attack.  The fee does serve a purpose.  

One evil (a working network) vs another (a small 9 cent fee).  Choices.  
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1018
HoneybadgerOfMoney.com Weed4bitcoin.com
Weren't they going to change transaction fees from 10k satoshis to 1k? What happened to that?

Also, that site you posted your screenshot of is requiring you to pay 20k satoshis which is double than the normal amount.

I thought it wasn't mandatory to pay a transaction fee? I send coins to some of my cold wallets without a transaction fee every now and then cause I'm not in a hurry of when it shall get there.
There is not any "minimum" amount of a fee that you have to pay in order to have your TX confirmed. The fee policy is set by each pool (and solo miner) separately and does vary somewhat from pool to pool. Even if you were to send a small TX with zero fee that is over 1 KB it may still get confirmed by the network.

What happened with the OP is that coinbase is forcing their customers to pay a certain amount of a fee in order to have a greater chance that the TX will be confirmed quickly. They are in effect forcing customers to pay the network to give them a better "customer experience" using coinbase.  

This


Do you know what happens when you set things like this to be free in cost?  Incentive to spam with single satoshi transactions = my case in point is Email SPAM!  I for one don't want to lose bitcoin functionality because some warren buffet lackie with 100 grand has nothing better to do than to spam out all BTC addresses with single satoshi transactions and silly comments.  Micropayments model should be solved by the businesses looking to offer the service ala entrepreneurs - this happens like others said...when there is a demand for it by a sizeable group.  
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
Weren't they going to change transaction fees from 10k satoshis to 1k? What happened to that?

Also, that site you posted your screenshot of is requiring you to pay 20k satoshis which is double than the normal amount.

I thought it wasn't mandatory to pay a transaction fee? I send coins to some of my cold wallets without a transaction fee every now and then cause I'm not in a hurry of when it shall get there.
There is not any "minimum" amount of a fee that you have to pay in order to have your TX confirmed. The fee policy is set by each pool (and solo miner) separately and does vary somewhat from pool to pool. Even if you were to send a small TX with zero fee that is over 1 KB it may still get confirmed by the network.

What happened with the OP is that coinbase is forcing their customers to pay a certain amount of a fee in order to have a greater chance that the TX will be confirmed quickly. They are in effect forcing customers to pay the network to give them a better "customer experience" using coinbase. 

I was wondering if someone would eventually give the right answer. Read this: http://bitcoinfees.com/
hero member
Activity: 642
Merit: 500
Evolution is the only way to survive
you need offchain tx , onchain is not suit for micro tx
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
sucker got hacked and screwed --Toad
If you have received a whole lot of small transactions, then the fee is larger due to the fact of how any Bitcoin wallet works. More transactions > larger transaction (space-wise) > more fee.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Weren't they going to change transaction fees from 10k satoshis to 1k? What happened to that?

Also, that site you posted your screenshot of is requiring you to pay 20k satoshis which is double than the normal amount.

I thought it wasn't mandatory to pay a transaction fee? I send coins to some of my cold wallets without a transaction fee every now and then cause I'm not in a hurry of when it shall get there.
There is not any "minimum" amount of a fee that you have to pay in order to have your TX confirmed. The fee policy is set by each pool (and solo miner) separately and does vary somewhat from pool to pool. Even if you were to send a small TX with zero fee that is over 1 KB it may still get confirmed by the network.

What happened with the OP is that coinbase is forcing their customers to pay a certain amount of a fee in order to have a greater chance that the TX will be confirmed quickly. They are in effect forcing customers to pay the network to give them a better "customer experience" using coinbase. 
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Hi -

Tried to send $0.24 worth of bitcoin and this pops up:




Is this what they mean when they say Bitcoin can never be used for micro transactions?   

Is this one of the 10 million things the Bitcoin dev team should have fixed 12 months ago, but has slated for "some time in the next 5 years" instead ?

Meanwhile the entire financial industry sees Bitcoin as having major flaws and never incorporates it.

And we never go ot the moon, because a bunch of developers have decided "we dont need that fixed right now.  we'll do it later" ?

Or is this something else?

-B-


Does that mean, that microtransactions will be fixed by btcdev team??? I think, that it's one of the benefit of cryptocoins.
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