Topic: It&#039;s already 48%, No one care about Ghash? (Read 5183 times)

Quote from: ljudotina on June 16, 2014, 05:22:50 AM

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

No it's not. Stop spreading this fear.

Doomsday would mean the attacker could do this things;

Reverse other people's transactions
Prevent transactions from being sent at all (they'll show as 0/unconfirmed)
Change the number of coins generated per block
Create coins out of thin air
Send coins that never belonged to him

With 40% or with 48% an attacker could still launch a double spend attack, just with less of a 100% success rate.

An attacker could technically reverse other people's transactions as they could start an attack prior to when a specific transaction was confirmed but the subject transaction was confirmed by the "orphaned" chain

phillipsjk

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Let the chips fall where they may.

So basicly, it's better to let shit happen, than to act on it before it happens? Shit that can kill or cripple BTC?
Wouldn't it be better to prepair everyone in advance? Make some dead line, update clients months ahead etc, and than execute hard fork?

I cant see how doing it that way could be wors than attack happening and than changing protocol in rush....what can go wrong with that i wonder...

Bitcoin is an experiment in using "proof-of-work" to secure a public transaction ledger. You can not work around the 51% attack at the protocol level without killing the currency.

Quote from: phillipsjk on June 16, 2014, 02:05:25 AM

Bitcoin's innovation was to guard against malicious updates to the block-chain by requiring a "proof-of-work". This allows the validity of the block-chain to be verified in a trustless manner. The "proof-of-work" assumes two things:

That people are generally good. (Bitcoin also makes is so that cheating in-system is more expensive than being honest.)
That competition will ensure that no miner gets a substantial market-share. (If your business relies on bitcoin, it makes sense to invest in a full node or pay somebody to do so).

Pools having greater than 30% of the hash-power breaks the second assumption. 30% is the magic number because one of the pools may be run or coerced by a malicious person: we would not know until it is too late.

"Proof-of-work" is not something to be worked around. When you participate in the BItcoin network, you have to accept that it is a valid way to form consensus. There are no known alternatives that are still decentralized. Evidently, it is not known if "proof-of-work" can stay decentralized. However, if decentralization is not possible with "proof-of-work": that means that the experiment failed, and that Bitcoins are worth approximately $0.

niothor

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Quote from: TookDk on June 16, 2014, 05:23:19 AM

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

No it's not. Stop spreading this fear.

Doomsday would mean the attacker could do this things;

Reverse other people's transactions
Prevent transactions from being sent at all (they'll show as 0/unconfirmed)
Change the number of coins generated per block
Create coins out of thin air
Send coins that never belonged to him

Velkro

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Quote from: ?? on ??

No, no one cares.

as above, if they pull smth, they will be finished forever

Lauda

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Quote from: DubFX on June 16, 2014, 05:19:56 AM

Stop the panic already...they have 30% currently.
Source: https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs

Oh, they moved a share of their pool to Unkown... then must everything be ok now Cheesy

I'm not sure why miners don't watch that statistic and equally distribute among 3-4 pools?
This is bad news for Bitcoin, even though nothing bad might happen. I'd rather no risk it.

Parazyd

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Quote from: DubFX on June 16, 2014, 05:19:56 AM

Stop the panic already...they have 30% currently.
Source: https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs

"Unknown" got bigger... But yeah, this looks great now. Much better than 50%

I wish more people move to smaller pools like Eligius or Slush.

Quote from: ljudotina on June 16, 2014, 05:22:50 AM

Quote from: Parazyd on June 16, 2014, 05:18:16 AM

Quote from: TookDk on June 16, 2014, 05:11:49 AM

Quote from: blatchcorn on June 16, 2014, 01:44:37 AM

Quote from: ljudotina on June 16, 2014, 05:16:30 AM

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

And really all of these stated numbers should be 20% lower given that aprox 20% of the share is unknown.
If Ghash has 31% we should still be worried

I totally agree.

I remember that BTCguild took action when they got over 35%, they raised the pool share fee, and made sure miners would go to other pools, very responsible of them, I respect that very much.
I have absolutely no respect for GHash.IO, they should have add a fee long time ago.

That's one of the main reasons people choose GHash.IO. That and merged mining of three more altcoins.
Eligius offers merged mining of NMC and also has 0% fees. People should switch there at least.

Quote from: DubFX on June 16, 2014, 05:19:56 AM

This is a flaw in bitcoin itself. CEX.IO today.........China, Russia, USA tomorrow.

This! It's protocol problem that should be blamed on protocol, not on ghash, and should be fiexd on protocol level. Ex lead dev said he has code in place to fix it if it evers becomes reality. Ok, maybe that code is not perfect, but still, can't they work on it, and than deploy it BEFORE it happens? What kind of protocol keepers are they if they will let it get hit before they act on it...tha'ts just not smart.

It's the code for a hard fork. We're better off not having to use it. But unfortunately, if a 51% attack happens, we'll have to hard fork the chain.

So basicly, it's better to let shit happen, than to act on it before it happens? Shit that can kill or cripple BTC?
Wouldn't it be better to prepair everyone in advance? Make some dead line, update clients months ahead etc, and than execute hard fork?

I cant see how doing it that way could be wors than attack happening and than changing protocol in rush....what can go wrong with that i wonder...

The devs have been working on this issue for a long time. It's not just a line of code in C.
The protocol is complicated and requires hard work. Gavin's (I think) code is just a last resort.

TookDk

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Stop the panic already...they have 30% currently.
Source: https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs

Oh, they moved a share of their pool to Unkown... then must everything be ok now Cheesy

ljudotina

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Quote from: Parazyd on June 16, 2014, 05:18:16 AM

Quote from: TookDk on June 16, 2014, 05:11:49 AM

Quote from: blatchcorn on June 16, 2014, 01:44:37 AM

Quote from: ljudotina on June 16, 2014, 05:16:30 AM

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

And really all of these stated numbers should be 20% lower given that aprox 20% of the share is unknown.
If Ghash has 31% we should still be worried

I totally agree.

I remember that BTCguild took action when they got over 35%, they raised the pool share fee, and made sure miners would go to other pools, very responsible of them, I respect that very much.
I have absolutely no respect for GHash.IO, they should have add a fee long time ago.

That's one of the main reasons people choose GHash.IO. That and merged mining of three more altcoins.
Eligius offers merged mining of NMC and also has 0% fees. People should switch there at least.

Quote from: TookDk on June 16, 2014, 05:11:49 AM

This is a flaw in bitcoin itself. CEX.IO today.........China, Russia, USA tomorrow.

This! It's protocol problem that should be blamed on protocol, not on ghash, and should be fiexd on protocol level. Ex lead dev said he has code in place to fix it if it evers becomes reality. Ok, maybe that code is not perfect, but still, can't they work on it, and than deploy it BEFORE it happens? What kind of protocol keepers are they if they will let it get hit before they act on it...tha'ts just not smart.

It's the code for a hard fork. We're better off not having to use it. But unfortunately, if a 51% attack happens, we'll have to hard fork the chain.

So basicly, it's better to let shit happen, than to act on it before it happens? Shit that can kill or cripple BTC?
Wouldn't it be better to prepair everyone in advance? Make some dead line, update clients months ahead etc, and than execute hard fork?

I cant see how doing it that way could be wors than attack happening and than changing protocol in rush....what can go wrong with that i wonder...

DubFX

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Stop the panic already...they have 30% currently.
Source: https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=24hrs

Parazyd

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Space Lord

Quote from: blatchcorn on June 16, 2014, 01:44:37 AM

Quote from: ljudotina on June 16, 2014, 05:16:30 AM

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

And really all of these stated numbers should be 20% lower given that aprox 20% of the share is unknown.
If Ghash has 31% we should still be worried

I totally agree.

I remember that BTCguild took action when they got over 35%, they raised the pool share fee, and made sure miners would go to other pools, very responsible of them, I respect that very much.
I have absolutely no respect for GHash.IO, they should have add a fee long time ago.

That's one of the main reasons people choose GHash.IO. That and merged mining of three more altcoins.
Eligius offers merged mining of NMC and also has 0% fees. People should switch there at least.

This is a flaw in bitcoin itself. CEX.IO today.........China, Russia, USA tomorrow.

This! It's protocol problem that should be blamed on protocol, not on ghash, and should be fiexd on protocol level. Ex lead dev said he has code in place to fix it if it evers becomes reality. Ok, maybe that code is not perfect, but still, can't they work on it, and than deploy it BEFORE it happens? What kind of protocol keepers are they if they will let it get hit before they act on it...tha'ts just not smart.

It's the code for a hard fork. We're better off not having to use it. But unfortunately, if a 51% attack happens, we'll have to hard fork the chain.

ljudotina

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Quote from: blatchcorn on June 16, 2014, 01:44:37 AM

This is a flaw in bitcoin itself. CEX.IO today.........China, Russia, USA tomorrow.

This! It's protocol problem that should be blamed on protocol, not on ghash, and should be fiexd on protocol level. Ex lead dev said he has code in place to fix it if it evers becomes reality. Ok, maybe that code is not perfect, but still, can't they work on it, and than deploy it BEFORE it happens? What kind of protocol keepers are they if they will let it get hit before they act on it...tha'ts just not smart.

TookDk

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One coin to rule them all

Quote from: blatchcorn on June 16, 2014, 01:44:37 AM

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

And really all of these stated numbers should be 20% lower given that aprox 20% of the share is unknown.
If Ghash has 31% we should still be worried

I totally agree.

I remember that BTCguild took action when they got over 35%, they raised the pool share fee, and made sure miners would go to other pools, very responsible of them, I respect that very much.
I have absolutely no respect for GHash.IO, they should have add a fee long time ago.

Parazyd

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Activity: 812

Merit: 587

Space Lord

Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

And really all of these stated numbers should be 20% lower given that aprox 20% of the share is unknown.
If Ghash has 31% we should still be worried

The lower 30s aren't that bad. It would still be better that it was lower, I agree, but it's not such a serious threat as 51%, or even 40%.

blatchcorn

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Why everybody talk about 51 %? 50.00001 % is not enough?

The term 51% is "hype" word, actually 40% would be enough to make serious trouble.

You mean 40% is enough to get past some confirmations with a decent success rate?
51% is like doomsday for bitcoin though.

And really all of these stated numbers should be 20% lower given that aprox 20% of the share is unknown.
If Ghash has 31% we should still be worried

Lauda

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Terminated.