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Topic: Judge Orders Defendant to Decrypt Laptop - page 3. (Read 5628 times)

hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 04:31:55 PM
#30
If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun.  

[Emphasis mine] Would you please elaborate? To me it almost looks like you're saying the exact purpose of courts is to force people to do pretty much anything regardless of human rights.
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
January 25, 2012, 04:31:09 PM
#29
Quote
If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun.


Assumptions might have been made on my part that might have confused the issue. ie. That you are a U.S. Citizen.

Many have gone to court and refused. Reporters for one, defendants for another, even witnesses. The biggest protections a citizen have here is the 1st and 5th amendments.

A court can and/has required reporters to give up sources. They refuse, if they want to stay a reporter.

A defendant is under no obligation to help the prosecutor convict himself. The knowledge that the judge seeks is in the defendants head. His 'words' / 'memory' are to be used against him.  Here is the catch, the vast majority think that him refusing makes him guilty because no one stands up for their rights anymore. He may just be an innocent standing up for his rights, or he may in fact be guilty but it is not his job to help the lynch mob to hang him.

 
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 03:46:28 PM
#28
Quote
If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy."


Lets try another tactic:


Hawker, I remember you from somewhere. Oh, yea I did a BitCoin sale with you awhile back and you scammed me and kept my bitcoins without paying. Your a scammer. I want to see your wallet.dat file so I can prove it to the community that you are in fact a scammer. If you don't show me your wallet.dat file your ARE a scammer and deserving of the "Scammer Tag."

Your GUILTY.



^^note: This is not true but was used to prove an example case.



If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun. 
vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
January 25, 2012, 03:00:26 PM
#27
Quote
If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy."


Lets try another tactic:


Hawker, I remember you from somewhere. Oh, yea I did a BitCoin sale with you awhile back and you scammed me and kept my bitcoins without paying. Your a scammer. I want to see your wallet.dat file so I can prove it to the community that you are in fact a scammer. If you don't show me your wallet.dat file your ARE a scammer and deserving of the "Scammer Tag."

Your GUILTY.



^^note: This is not true but was used to prove an example case.

vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
January 25, 2012, 02:50:32 PM
#26
Quote
Seriously, you think a judge is going to sit there and allow a common thief to keep his ill gotten gains just by pretending that he doesn't remember where he hid the money?

  Your assumption is that he has already been found guilty. He is innocent until proven guilty.  And at least in this country, you can not be made to convict yourself.

Lets presume he is Innocent: Does him not wanting to allow it, make him Guilty?

Lets presume he is Guilty: Is he obliged to help the prosecutor find him Guilty?  If so, why do we need prosecutors? Fire them all, and lets just let the Judges find Guilt or Innocence. Might as well do away with Jurors too.

And the logic presented in your quote suggests that people don't forget things. The argument that 'it was important' so he shouldn't have forgotten is a false one.  (s) All the Husbands that have forgotten their Anniversary.

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 02:43:04 PM
#25
You suggestion is that unless someone is found guilty, they should not suffer a breach of privacy.  That would simply mean that a burglar has only to lock the door of his apartment and he is free to carry on robbing unless caught in the act.  That's a bad idea.

...snip...

Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.

If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy." 

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 02:35:21 PM
#24
This is clearly a breach of the 5th Amendment. IANAL either, but I am a rational human being with some common sense. When arrested, you're not obligated to lift a finger to help the prosecutors. You're (supposed to be) free to keep your mouth shut the entire time. But suddenly some judge thinks it's appropriate to require someone to aid their efforts at obtaining information?

Quote
nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

That judge's order is total BS, a trampling of the spirit and letter of the 5th, and just flat-out contemptible.

Makes me wonder when was the last time the judiciary got away with demanding someone produce a key to a lockbox, and holding them indefinitely until said key was produced.

"But your honor, I *thought* I put the key behind the shed, but I hid so many I honestly don't know where else it could be!"


"Well, that's just too bad for you, isn't it? Life in prison then, for the crime of refusing to self-incriminate. Case dismissed... and let us know when your memory decides to cooperate."

Total BS.


The last time that happened was the last time someone made such a ridiculous statement in court. 

Seriously, you think a judge is going to sit there and allow a common thief to keep his ill gotten gains just by pretending that he doesn't remember where he hid the money? 

vip
Activity: 490
Merit: 271
January 25, 2012, 12:51:57 PM
#23
Quote
Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.

Agreed.

It is forcing testimony by threat of action. The 5th Amendment should apply but Judges are to old and don't understand computers for the most part. In another 20 Years, they will get replaced with a more understandable crowd of Judges.

I believe, the current Judges look at like a safe, they say open it or else.

I would still say: "I don't remember the password."   How do you prove her wrong? Even if she had it open when they arrived. The stress of them arriving must have caused a lapse in her memory.

It is time for the courts to catch up with technology. It was hoped they would do it by adapting but it seems they are staunchly protecting the status quo. Some of these cases are absurd.

 You have this file on your computer, so your guilty. If I was a devious lawyer with a client like that, I would email the Judge, Prosecutor, and the Jury the file.  Closing Arguments: If you find my client guilty ladies and gentlemen, you must also find yourselves guilty. Have you checked your email, lately.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
January 25, 2012, 12:18:54 PM
#22
You suggestion is that unless someone is found guilty, they should not suffer a breach of privacy.  That would simply mean that a burglar has only to lock the door of his apartment and he is free to carry on robbing unless caught in the act.  That's a bad idea.

You're putting words in my mouth.  My argument is that people should not suffer this additional breach of privacy -- we're talking about decrypting laptops, none of what you describe above comes under that category.

On their laptops, people keep their private correspondence, maybe a diary, maybe a list of all their passwords to web sites, maybe emails from their mistresses, maybe lots of gay porn that would out them, presidential death threats that they wrote but never sent, etc.  In short: their entire life is concentrated in one place; such is the power of modern technology.

I can understand a search warrant for my physical property -- look for all the physical evidence you want.  But to open up my laptop is to open up pretty much every part of my life; and I find that a bridge too far.

Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
January 25, 2012, 12:16:12 PM
#21
What if they turn over an unencrypted copy of whatever they feel like.  The recipient has no way to prove that what they were given was or was not the actual complete content of the drive.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: Compromised. Thanks, Android!
January 25, 2012, 12:12:09 PM
#20
This is clearly a breach of the 5th Amendment. IANAL either, but I am a rational human being with some common sense. When arrested, you're not obligated to lift a finger to help the prosecutors. You're (supposed to be) free to keep your mouth shut the entire time. But suddenly some judge thinks it's appropriate to require someone to aid their efforts at obtaining information?

Quote
nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

That judge's order is total BS, a trampling of the spirit and letter of the 5th, and just flat-out contemptible.

Makes me wonder when was the last time the judiciary got away with demanding someone produce a key to a lockbox, and holding them indefinitely until said key was produced.

"But your honor, I *thought* I put the key behind the shed, but I hid so many I honestly don't know where else it could be!"

"Well, that's just too bad for you, isn't it? Life in prison then, for the crime of refusing to self-incriminate. Case dismissed... and let us know when your memory decides to cooperate."

Total BS.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 12:09:38 PM
#19
Unfortunately, its also a necessary tool to catch criminals.  If you regard having to show the contents of your computer as a breach of your privacy, wait and see how you feel when you have fat fools turning your bed over and mucking about in your wardrobe. 

I would actually prefer to have people search my physical possessions. I wear my clothes in public, my bed is mundane, it's just stuff.

But my computer? That's where the REALLY private stuff is. It's that little alcove where the telescreen doesn't see, where I can write in peace before morning calisthenics.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 11:48:13 AM
#18
...snip...

I am similarly suggesting that society should accept that the harm done by denying completely innocent people the right to privacy outweighs the harm done by sometimes being unable to access evidence encrypted by the guilty.


The most obvious breach of privacy is a search warrant.  I don't know if you have any experience of this but all your possessions are chucked about, your diaries are read, photo albums have pictures taken out to make sure there is nothing behind them, its a real griefing.

Unfortunately, its also a necessary tool to catch criminals.  If you regard having to show the contents of your computer as a breach of your privacy, wait and see how you feel when you have fat fools turning your bed over and mucking about in your wardrobe. 

You suggestion is that unless someone is found guilty, they should not suffer a breach of privacy.  That would simply mean that a burglar has only to lock the door of his apartment and he is free to carry on robbing unless caught in the act.  That's a bad idea.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
January 25, 2012, 09:35:42 AM
#17
So we are in agreement - refusing to decrypt is the same as any other effort to hide evidence.  As such, the court must penalise it. 

You're jumping about a little bit on what we're talking about.  I'm not saying that one is allowed and one isn't.  I'm saying they are both the same, and so the argument that "that would be allowing people who use a computer to steal a protection that is not available to people who use a pen and paper to steal." is not valid.

BTW, you totally misunderstand what innocent until proven guilty means.  It does not mean that the guilty have some mysterious right to hide evidence - it means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution.

I have understood entirely what it means.  In fact I think that I've thought about it more deeply than just "burden of proof".  I didn't say it gives you the right to hide evidence, I said that my argument for why "the fifth should be allowed" was analogous... I'll say it again, and try to be clearer...

"Innocent until proven guilty" recognises that more harm would be done by convicting the innocent than by not convicting the guilty -- i.e. society accepts that trade off; sometimes the guilty go free in order that the innocent are never incorrectly convicted.

I am similarly suggesting that society should accept that the harm done by denying completely innocent people the right to privacy outweighs the harm done by sometimes being unable to access evidence encrypted by the guilty.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
January 25, 2012, 08:15:57 AM
#16
my password was written on a post it note. where is the post it note? Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 08:14:44 AM
#15
Now... there is one get out; and that is that some more powerful judiciary declares that refusing to decrypt is protected.  You will still be in contempt though, and either an appeal or some patience will be needed.

That would be allowing people who use a computer to steal a protection that is not available to people who use a pen and paper to steal.  Why on earth would a judge do that?  

I'm not saying they would; I'm saying that's the get out.

As to why they would...

You're looking at it entirely from the point of view of the criminal (which, to be fair, is exactly what governments always do).  There are two sides to these laws though... most people are not criminals.  Most people who use encryption are not criminals.  By enabling the government to demand decryption you are damaging the freedoms of those people who aren't criminal but value their privacy.  Some people argue that that damage is worse than the damage done by not being able to get at the guilty man's secrets.

Incidentally, this is exactly the same argument for innocent until proven guilty, which implicitly says that it's better to let a guilty man go free than imprison an innocent man.  I think I would say the same: it is better that the privacy of the innocent be protected than the guilty have their secrets forcibly extracted.

By the way: your analogy is flawed.  The equivalent of refusing to decrypt is that the person with the pen and paper secret has hidden the paper somewhere and refuses to tell the court where it is.


So we are in agreement - refusing to decrypt is the same as any other effort to hide evidence.  As such, the court must penalise it. 

BTW, you totally misunderstand what innocent until proven guilty means.  It does not mean that the guilty have some mysterious right to hide evidence - it means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
January 25, 2012, 06:15:39 AM
#14
Now... there is one get out; and that is that some more powerful judiciary declares that refusing to decrypt is protected.  You will still be in contempt though, and either an appeal or some patience will be needed.

That would be allowing people who use a computer to steal a protection that is not available to people who use a pen and paper to steal.  Why on earth would a judge do that?  

I'm not saying they would; I'm saying that's the get out.

As to why they would...

You're looking at it entirely from the point of view of the criminal (which, to be fair, is exactly what governments always do).  There are two sides to these laws though... most people are not criminals.  Most people who use encryption are not criminals.  By enabling the government to demand decryption you are damaging the freedoms of those people who aren't criminal but value their privacy.  Some people argue that that damage is worse than the damage done by not being able to get at the guilty man's secrets.

Incidentally, this is exactly the same argument for innocent until proven guilty, which implicitly says that it's better to let a guilty man go free than imprison an innocent man.  I think I would say the same: it is better that the privacy of the innocent be protected than the guilty have their secrets forcibly extracted.

By the way: your analogy is flawed.  The equivalent of refusing to decrypt is that the person with the pen and paper secret has hidden the paper somewhere and refuses to tell the court where it is.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 05:34:43 AM
#13
The lady needs to decide if she will do less time for the crime that the evidence on her laptop would convict her of or for obstructing justice by refusing to give the password.  Its just like a businessman who has to decide between burning his customer records or going to jail for tax evasion. 

I think (IANAL though) that it's worse than that.  Contempt of court can be dished out again after the first sentence is served.

Your original trial can be on hold because you refused cooperate with court.  You serve your sentence, and then the original trial starts up again.  Then you get asked "what is the decryption password?" and if you don't answer, you will be found in contempt again.

So it's not really a choice; by being in contempt you are only adding to your eventual sentence.

Now... there is one get out; and that is that some more powerful judiciary declares that refusing to decrypt is protected.  You will still be in contempt though, and either an appeal or some patience will be needed.

That would be allowing people who use a computer to steal a protection that is not available to people who use a pen and paper to steal.  Why on earth would a judge do that? 
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 502
January 25, 2012, 05:28:42 AM
#12
The lady needs to decide if she will do less time for the crime that the evidence on her laptop would convict her of or for obstructing justice by refusing to give the password.  Its just like a businessman who has to decide between burning his customer records or going to jail for tax evasion. 

I think (IANAL though) that it's worse than that.  Contempt of court can be dished out again after the first sentence is served.

Your original trial can be on hold because you refused cooperate with court.  You serve your sentence, and then the original trial starts up again.  Then you get asked "what is the decryption password?" and if you don't answer, you will be found in contempt again.

So it's not really a choice; by being in contempt you are only adding to your eventual sentence.

Now... there is one get out; and that is that some more powerful judiciary declares that refusing to decrypt is protected.  You will still be in contempt though, and either an appeal or some patience will be needed.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
January 25, 2012, 05:16:53 AM
#11
Your Honor,

 Ordering me to decrypt my laptop is like ordering me to remember something. My password was, (note: the past tense, your honor), memorized.  I can't remember the pass phrase.

And Your Honor, if the precedent is to be able to order someone to remember, wouldn't that apply to all, equally.  So all witnesses and defendants would not be able to say; "I don't remember."  

BTW: Your Honor, what was the License Plate number of your very first car?  YOU must answer. If your wrong, you're lying.

If I was to guess for you, Your Honor, I would guess: ASSHAT  Don't you love those specialty plates?




That really isn't an issue.  She was using the laptop when they entered her property so she still knows the password.

The lady needs to decide if she will do less time for the crime that the evidence on her laptop would convict her of or for obstructing justice by refusing to give the password.  Its just like a businessman who has to decide between burning his customer records or going to jail for tax evasion. 
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