KNC ROI Figures | Bitcointalksearch.org

polarhei

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Firing it up

Quote from: SirWizz on July 30, 2013, 10:03:29 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 30, 2013, 08:43:22 PM

Anyone thinking difficulty will only go up 400% or 1000% and flatline is likely going to be poorer for that faulty logic.

And why is that so hard to imagine? The madness is tied to the price of bitcoin, so it will stop at some point unless the value of the bitcoin goes up.

Higher the price in fiat, then more people will do. WE shall see.

polarhei

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Firing it up

Quote from: Ytterbium on August 01, 2013, 07:29:52 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Remember all those scam ASIC companies? Same excuse.

Same excuse for what? You not knowing they said they taped out? But so what? If you think they're untrustworthy, why does it matter what they say?

Either they are honest, in which case it was obvious that they'd taped out, or they are dishonest and could lie about their tape out date.

OrSoc is the shield of these spsuspected scammers,looking like highly possible to beam out, Like What Avalon has performed on the 1500 sets of ASIC miners.

polarhei

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Firing it up

Quote from: Ytterbium on July 31, 2013, 02:33:50 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes because if they say they're on track for September then it must be correct. Damn the people ("trolls") who question anything or demand answers right? I've seen it happen time and time again in the KNC thread.

The point is that if they are liars, then it wouldn't matter if they had announced a tapeout or not, because they could just lie about it.

There are liars inside. Why they introduce this instead of they do themselves? Why these people use pre-orders instead of first come first served? Why they don't borrow 2000K USD to do themselves first like AMD?

Ytterbium

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Remember all those scam ASIC companies? Same excuse.

Same excuse for what? You not knowing they said they taped out? But so what? If you think they're untrustworthy, why does it matter what they say?

Either they are honest, in which case it was obvious that they'd taped out, or they are dishonest and could lie about their tape out date.

HeRetiK

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Regarding the tape-out discussion:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2832504

Quote from: kncminer on July 30, 2013, 08:41:06 AM

Hi Guys

We would like to say that. Yes....we did tape-out of the ASIC some time ago. The exact details of the ASIC schedule, volumes, vendor etc. is kept internal since it's very sensitive information towards competitors. The product development tasks are on-track."

We are still on schedule to begin shipping in September.

Thanks
KnCMiner Team

Ytterbium

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes because if they say they're on track for September then it must be correct. Damn the people ("trolls") who question anything or demand answers right? I've seen it happen time and time again in the KNC thread.

The point is that if they are liars, then it wouldn't matter if they had announced a tapeout or not, because they could just lie about it.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: SirWizz on July 30, 2013, 10:03:29 PM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 30, 2013, 08:43:22 PM

Anyone thinking difficulty will only go up 400% or 1000% and flatline is likely going to be poorer for that faulty logic.

And why is that so hard to imagine? The madness is tied to the price of bitcoin, so it will stop at some point unless the value of the bitcoin goes up.

1) Because the amount of EXISTING pre-orders are is already more than that.

2) The margins on ASICs are still very high so once sales slow down to a trickle because annual ROI drops to something pathetic like 20% per year, the producers can cut the price by 50% and sell even more, then cut the price by another 50% and sell even more and by then have the funds to finance smaller/faster/better/cheaper ASICs.

SirWizz

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 30, 2013, 08:43:22 PM

Anyone thinking difficulty will only go up 400% or 1000% and flatline is likely going to be poorer for that faulty logic.

And why is that so hard to imagine? The madness is tied to the price of bitcoin, so it will stop at some point unless the value of the bitcoin goes up.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: ultrix on July 30, 2013, 06:36:07 PM

Quote from: FeedbackLoop on July 30, 2013, 06:13:05 PM

Why is everyone so certain that difficulty increases will be below 60% a month?

Not sure how much this estimate is exaggerated for Avalon latest shipments but faster increases than what we are seeing now are very possible with all the people sending millions after ever more powerful and more mass produced ASICs:

http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

That said I do have a KNC order. Tongue

Not saying it won't increase at 60%+ for a while. But it can't exceed the rate at which new processes come online at foundries, which is roughly a statement of Moore's law. That is, in the long run. The next few months will be hectic.

We haven't even caught UP to Moore's law. Yes in 2-3 years when all units are available with 2-3 day delivery and the network is 40,000 TH/s+ then yes difficulty growth for a fixed exchange rate will slow to Moore's law but even then if the exchange rate goes up 5x expect difficulty to follow even with no improvement in efficiency.

So difficulty won't increase 60% per month perpetually until the universe dies of heat death but depending on the amount of pre-orders, the improvement pace of future ASICs (until caught up to current process technology = 28nm), and the future exchange rate it can rise by a lot for a very very long time. Anyone thinking difficulty will only go up 400% or 1000% and flatline is likely going to be poorer for that faulty logic.

ultrix

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Quote from: FeedbackLoop on July 30, 2013, 06:13:05 PM

Why is everyone so certain that difficulty increases will be below 60% a month?

Not sure how much this estimate is exaggerated for Avalon latest shipments but faster increases than what we are seeing now are very possible with all the people sending millions after ever more powerful and more mass produced ASICs:

http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

That said I do have a KNC order. Tongue

Not saying it won't increase at 60%+ for a while. But it can't exceed the rate at which new processes come online at foundries, which is roughly a statement of Moore's law. That is, in the long run. The next few months will be hectic.

FeedbackLoop

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Why is everyone so certain that difficulty increases will be below 60% a month?

Not sure how much this estimate is exaggerated for Avalon latest shipments but faster increases than what we are seeing now are very possible with all the people sending millions after ever more powerful and more mass produced ASICs:

http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

That said I do have a KNC order. Tongue

Dalkore

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on July 30, 2013, 05:19:15 PM

Quote from: Ytterbium on July 30, 2013, 05:14:34 PM

Quote from: bitcoinarnold on July 29, 2013, 12:02:52 PM

Op, there is no way you will have KNC in hand by september. November is a more realistic start.

Nor is there any 'way' that difficulty is going to keep rising 62% each month for the next year.

It really depends on how much foolishly purchased pre-order hashing power has already been purchased. Once ordered the hashpower will eventually be delivered causing the difficulty to keep rising long after new sales no longer make any sense due to negative ROI%.

A miner who has ALREADY bought has no reason to not mine because the purchase price is a sunk cost and difficulty would need to be > 6 billion before the electrical cost was greater than the mined coins (at current exchange rate). So you "could" see this scenario were difficulty keeps rising and rising and rising and despite everyone saying "buying new rigs is stupid now" it keeps rising as ALREADY purchased rigs are slowly delivered.

Sounds bittersweet. I wonder how many people will actually bang their head on a wall. You have an interesting angle on how the slow deliveries might of maintained an artificially low difficulty rate that allowed more people to think it was a good idea to purchase new asic hardware. Don't see any major holes in that D&T.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: Ytterbium on July 30, 2013, 05:14:34 PM

Quote from: bitcoinarnold on July 29, 2013, 12:02:52 PM

Op, there is no way you will have KNC in hand by september. November is a more realistic start.

Nor is there any 'way' that difficulty is going to keep rising 62% each month for the next year.

It really depends on how much foolishly purchased pre-order hashing power has already been purchased. Once ordered the hashpower will eventually be delivered causing the difficulty to keep rising long after new sales no longer make any sense due to negative ROI%.

A miner who has ALREADY bought has no reason to not mine because the purchase price is a sunk cost and difficulty would need to be > 6 billion before the electrical cost was greater than the mined coins (at current exchange rate). So you "could" see this scenario were difficulty keeps rising and rising and rising and despite everyone saying "buying new rigs is stupid now" it keeps rising as ALREADY purchased rigs are slowly delivered.

Ytterbium

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Quote from: bitcoinarnold on July 29, 2013, 12:02:52 PM

Op, there is no way you will have KNC in hand by september. November is a more realistic start.

Nor is there any 'way' that difficulty is going to keep rising 62% each month for the next year.

Quote from: ?? on ??

They haven't announced any tape out or anything. No details at all besides some funky diagrams and a FPGA prototype. I'll be god damn surprised if they can and actual deliver anything before November.

Why are you assuming they would have announced their tape out date when it happened? If they say they're on track for September, obviously they must have taped out for now.

Ether they taped out already and are on track for September, or
They taped out in the past and are lying about being on track for September.

But if they're lying, then they could simply lie about having taped out.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: tacotime on July 29, 2013, 11:06:19 PM

The amusing thing is that people keep shouting out, "It'll never make ROI," based on the assumption that the hashrate can continue its exponential increase in computational power at several fold the rate of Moore's law (never mind anything else) and that the price of Bitcoin will always stay the same.

Forever? No but in the short term it is fairly easy.

Miners tend to be pretty stupid when it comes to ROI% on capital costs so the difficulty tends to track the average electrical effeciency and exchange rate. Assuming exchange rate remains the same we are talking on average a 150:1 improvement in electrical efficiency. That means the watts per block and thus electrical cost per block falling by 1/150. The network could easily suppport difficulty rising to 2-3 billion. So yeah it can rise 60% a month for some time before reaching a new equilibrium due to higher efficiency.

madsusies

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Relax boys, you'll be lucky if you see the Avalon chips in Nov. Kiss

till then will be Josh and Sonny in jail Cheesy

= the Difficulty Factor do not speed up w/o new asic booth so quickly

ultrix

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Quote from: tacotime on July 29, 2013, 11:06:19 PM

Quote from: ultrix on July 29, 2013, 11:03:40 PM

Problem is that 62% is the rate it will increase for a few months, likely until November, then it will decline. I would guess the curve would likely be like with GPU mining when it first started out, since GPUs had a very long life within the bitcoin network. Or maybe FPGAs, although they seemed to have a fairly short life with respect to their mass introduction and subsequent becoming "dated".

The amusing thing is that people keep shouting out, "It'll never make ROI," based on the assumption that the hashrate can continue its exponential increase in computational power at several fold the rate of Moore's law (never mind anything else) and that the price of Bitcoin will always stay the same.

Personally I would be surprised if we see KnC miner products before 2014, though.

I think KNC will deliver on time. I would be surprised if they aren't scheduling an MPW run right now.

tacotime

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Quote from: ultrix on July 29, 2013, 11:03:40 PM

Problem is that 62% is the rate it will increase for a few months, likely until November, then it will decline. I would guess the curve would likely be like with GPU mining when it first started out, since GPUs had a very long life within the bitcoin network. Or maybe FPGAs, although they seemed to have a fairly short life with respect to their mass introduction and subsequent becoming "dated".

The amusing thing is that people keep shouting out, "It'll never make ROI," based on the assumption that the hashrate can continue its exponential increase in computational power at several fold the rate of Moore's law (never mind anything else) and that the price of Bitcoin will always stay the same.

Personally I would be surprised if we see KnC miner products before 2014, though.

ultrix

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Problem is that 62% is the rate it will increase for a few months, likely until November, then it will decline. I would guess the curve would likely be like with GPU mining when it first started out, since GPUs had a very long life within the bitcoin network. Or maybe FPGAs, although they seemed to have a fairly short life with respect to their mass introduction and subsequent becoming "dated".

FCTaiChi

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Quote from: bitcoinarnold on July 29, 2013, 12:02:52 PM

Op, there is no way you will have KNC in hand by september. November is a more realistic start.

Yeah, they say they aren't even shipping until late Oct.

Topic: KNC ROI Figures (Read 2402 times)