I'd like to make a few points here.
1. KnC just issued a news post saying they have started FULL production, and the miners should be here within the coming days. They say they're on schedule, and...
2. This won't be a repeat of what we had with the company who... Shall not be named. KnC has shown a huge amount of things, such as the chips, the PCB production, and what we'll surely be seeing soon, a working Jupiter/Saturn. They have shown multiple steps of production, and they're saying...
3. They're on schedule. This isn't like BFL. It's not like ", We're shipping in September... No, October... Actually, November... ect." They have a tight schedule, and as long as they get day 1 shipped by the 1st, I'll be happy. Even if day 1 gets shipped within the first week of October, I'll be fine. If they stick to their promises, they'll be able to manufacture, and maybe ship HUNDREDS in a day. So, I expect by tomorrow, or even Saturday, these things WILL be shipping.
But, I've never even been to the office, so, I guess we'll be relying on KnC and even Bitcoinorama, since he'll be over there. We'll see where it goes from here, but I'm trusting in KnC...
Topic: KNCMiner REfusing refunds - page 5. (Read 9526 times)
(Post deleted)
Sorry, removed seller's name that's buying KnC orders. He's all done buying KnC pre-orders.
Sorry, removed seller's name that's buying KnC orders. He's all done buying KnC pre-orders.
This is why they're refusing refunds:
KnC's EZ-Copy pseudo-ASIC isn't going to be competitive against Bitfury, much less HashFast.
Don't take my word for it, look at decentralizedhashing.com's quasi-official chart:
HashFast's Sierra and Baby-Jet are kicking their sorry Swedish ass all over the chart.
They have the top two positions, and positive ROI in all scenarios.
KnC's poor customers are relying on nothing but good luck, a hope and a prayer that difficulty will taper. That's why KnC is way down on the list, at #14.
KnC's EZ-Copy pseudo-ASIC isn't going to be competitive against Bitfury, much less HashFast.
Don't take my word for it, look at decentralizedhashing.com's quasi-official chart:
HashFast's Sierra and Baby-Jet are kicking their sorry Swedish ass all over the chart.
They have the top two positions, and positive ROI in all scenarios.
KnC's poor customers are relying on nothing but good luck, a hope and a prayer that difficulty will taper. That's why KnC is way down on the list, at #14.
You do know that they've built a datacentre? Purchased 100's of 850w PSU's. This is not the behaviour of a company planning a hit and run.
No, to be honest, I know very little about what they are doing. I only took an interest recently because it has a significant impending effect on the bitcoin economy, and I like to know what's what. Is there a source for this data center info?
http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/kncminer-hosting/kncminer-pool/2934-more-real-p-pictures-of-the-data-centre
I suppose it could be argued, but I really have no idea if it applies from a legal standpoint. If this email was only sent to one person, or a select few, I think that would be at their discretion. I mean, everyone agreed to their terms and conditions, and it seems highly unlikely that a company would undermine their own terms, which probably required careful planning and legal council to make sure they were properly protected.
I totally agree. That's why they'd have to accept that if there customer service team were sending this message to people, that IS their terms.Anyway, this is all speculation and hopefully unnecessary. I hope somewhere in Sweden machines are pumping out the goods as we speak.
P.S. iCEBREAKER, your ignore button is incredibly yellow, so I'm not even going to look at that chart.
but Bitcoinorama assured us all thousands of times that we could get refunds right up until the time of shipment or delivery (can't remember which but it doesn't matter)?
You do know that they've built a datacentre? Purchased 100's of 850w PSU's. This is not the behaviour of a company planning a hit and run.
No, to be honest, I know very little about what they are doing. I only took an interest recently because it has a significant impending effect on the bitcoin economy, and I like to know what's what. Is there a source for this data center info?However, I'm sure someone posted an email saying that refunds were available up to shipping. If that email was recent and it was being sent to customers, it would possibly be fair to argue it over-rules this clause?
I suppose it could be argued, but I really have no idea if it applies from a legal standpoint. If this email was only sent to one person, or a select few, I think that would be at their discretion. I mean, everyone agreed to their terms and conditions, and it seems highly unlikely that a company would undermine their own terms, which probably required careful planning and legal council to make sure they were properly protected. Wow, it looks like anything that goes wrong qualifies, including bankruptcy. So, by these terms, they can set their personal salaries very high, delay production/shipment indefinitely, refuse all refunds, and force a bankruptcy situation, relieving them of any obligation to pay anyone back?
You do know that they've built a datacentre? Purchased 100's of 850w PSU's. This is not the behaviour of a company planning a hit and run. I think the point is that if the plane that is carry the chips plummets into the sea, then KNC customers are shit-out-of-luck and will have to wait as long as it takes to get them replaced. Who wouldn't have such a clause in there t&c's?
I guess what you pointed out here about forum comments is probably true, in a legal sense.
From 13.1 Amendments, Assignments etc.:
"13.1.1 Any written or oral undertakings and commitments made prior to the Agreement are replaced by the content in these general terms and conditions of sale."
This means that any of those statements made on the forums about refunds up to the day it ships, etc. are totally worthless.
"13.1.1 Any written or oral undertakings and commitments made prior to the Agreement are replaced by the content in these general terms and conditions of sale."
This means that any of those statements made on the forums about refunds up to the day it ships, etc. are totally worthless.
However, I'm sure someone posted an email from KNC saying that refunds were available up to shipping. If that email was recent and it was being sent to customers, it would possibly be fair to argue it over-rules this clause?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but according to their terms and conditions, which you must agree to in order to place an order:
From 8.1 Delivery terms:
"The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery."
So, according to the terms, you're not entitled to cancel the order. Therefore, previously processed refunds can be considered a "generosity" on the part of KnC. In other words, they can stop offering refunds whenever they want.
From 13.1 Amendments, Assignments etc.:
"13.1.1 Any written or oral undertakings and commitments made prior to the Agreement are replaced by the content in these general terms and conditions of sale."
This means that any of those statements made on the forums about refunds up to the day it ships, etc. are totally worthless.
Okay, so it would seem you're locked in. That's not so bad, right?
Let's dig a little more:
From 8. Delivery terms:
"The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner."
Hmm, so I guess they can delay shipment indefinitely without consequence? Oh well, I gess some delays can be reasonably expected...
From 11. Force Majeure:
"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure..."
Wait... this says they can cancel an order without refund under certain circumstances? What are those circumstances I wonder?
11.1 Continued:
"...strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."
Wow, it looks like anything that goes wrong qualifies, including bankruptcy. So, by these terms, they can set their personal salaries very high, delay production/shipment indefinitely, refuse all refunds, and force a bankruptcy situation, relieving them of any obligation to pay anyone back?
I hope I'm wrong about that, bit it's kind of a scary thought.
From 8.1 Delivery terms:
"The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery."
So, according to the terms, you're not entitled to cancel the order. Therefore, previously processed refunds can be considered a "generosity" on the part of KnC. In other words, they can stop offering refunds whenever they want.
From 13.1 Amendments, Assignments etc.:
"13.1.1 Any written or oral undertakings and commitments made prior to the Agreement are replaced by the content in these general terms and conditions of sale."
This means that any of those statements made on the forums about refunds up to the day it ships, etc. are totally worthless.
Okay, so it would seem you're locked in. That's not so bad, right?
Let's dig a little more:
From 8. Delivery terms:
"The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on KnCMiner."
Hmm, so I guess they can delay shipment indefinitely without consequence? Oh well, I gess some delays can be reasonably expected...
From 11. Force Majeure:
"11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability, in the event of force majeure..."
Wait... this says they can cancel an order without refund under certain circumstances? What are those circumstances I wonder?
11.1 Continued:
"...strikes, floods and fires, wars, riots, interruptions in transport, shortage of material or energy sources affecting KnCMiner or its sub-suppliers, accidents or other occurrences which affects sub-suppliers’ production, bankruptcy or compulsory liquidation of a sub-supplier, accidents of any kind, governmental decisions which affects manufacturing or use of the Products and, in general, such events that were unforeseen at the time of the order which prevents or hinder manufacturing, transportation or delivery of the Products to the Purchaser."
Wow, it looks like anything that goes wrong qualifies, including bankruptcy. So, by these terms, they can set their personal salaries very high, delay production/shipment indefinitely, refuse all refunds, and force a bankruptcy situation, relieving them of any obligation to pay anyone back?
I hope I'm wrong about that, bit it's kind of a scary thought.
Just hire a Swedish lawyer to send them a letter. It will cost you few hundred Euros, but they will refund promptly.
How sure are you? Have you done the same thing?
KNC made it very clear that you could get a refund right up to the time the units went to production.
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
You have the opportunity to make a tidy profit here, on ebay, a group buy with no problem at all.
This is not Deja Vu it's just bad timing on your part.
Let me know if you want help
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
You have the opportunity to make a tidy profit here, on ebay, a group buy with no problem at all.
This is not Deja Vu it's just bad timing on your part.
Let me know if you want help
Dont lie, shill.
Sam stated that you can refund in the shipping your order day.
Not unicorn october date with no chips yet.
Yes I am a shill.
You need a refund?
where's Bitcoinorama when you need him?
wasn't this his whole schtick?
wasn't this his whole schtick?
after the queue we need to pay and this is the most risky part. what guarantee do you have that it will be delivered in September 2013? what make you so sure you will not end up liked butterfly? You are not showing Jupiter or Saturn Asic Mining hardware prototype, but expect us to make payment? Mars FPGA Prototype is for Mars FPGA Mining sales, not for Jupiter or Saturn because this are ASIC Devices and you even claim of a 28nm asic chip.
The main reason we can maintain our deadlines is that we are using ORSoC who have been producing devices based on FPGA's and various types of ASIC's for over 10 years. our main competition are new to FPGA and ASIC devices, ORSoC are not new. we specifically chose them as a partner so we don't suffer the same issues that have plagued our competitors.
Having said that, if you want to wait to pay until after you have seen a fully working prototype of Jupiter you are more than welcome to do so.
Sam
Thanks for the replies. Could you please let us know under what terms and conditions will the customers be preordering?
What about refund policy?
Do we have any guarantee on the deliver date? With guarantee I mean that if the units arrive later than. 15th October (for the first 500) you refund 50% of the preorder amount.
Yes we definitely need money back guarantee and refund. September 30th is the deadline for product completion and shipping. Anytime later, buyers can choose for a new agreeable date or a FULL refund. Yifu has mentioned that he really can't see anyone producing a 2rd generation/28nm at this point in time 2013 and he stated that end of 2014 he will have the new gen chip, I hope he knows what he is talking? We need buyers protection and not end up like butterflies.
We see no reason why it cant work like that, the only addition I will add is that the refund will be 100% with the order cancelled, We wont be offering a discount/refund and still shipping you the boxes. Refunds are offered up to the day of shipment of your order.
Above all else we will be fair.
Sam
KNC made it very clear that you could get a refund right up to the time the units went to production.
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
That was my reaction as well.
Repeat the following 1000 times or until it finally sinks in...
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"............................................
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"
"I shall never pre-order mining gear"............................................
Hahahahaha.
Don´t be so bad, this people is suffering.
+1
Just hire a Swedish lawyer to send them a letter. It will cost you few hundred Euros, but they will refund promptly.
http://www.konsumentverket.se/otherlanguages/English/Consumer-rights/Right-to-cancel-a-purchase/
it seems they are a 14day
im not good with legal jargin
it seems they are a 14day
im not good with legal jargin
My "dwa grosze":
1) KNC is registered in Sweden in EU. If you buy anything online you have right to cancel the purchase even 14 days after delivery. It does not apply to "professional buyers" such as entrepreneurs.
2) It is possible that you do not have to return the product in 14 days. You must inform seller in 14 days that you wish to cancel but than you have 14 more days to return the device. Seller even must pay back your shipping costs. So free mining for 28 days.
3) There is however way to block consumer right to cancel the order and return the product. If it is "personalized" before shipping it is considered "unreturnable". Now if you thought that KNC is adding you worker settings to the unit becouse they are nice, think again :-)
4) KNC and all other vendors might write anything they want in terms of ordering and shipping. If they are contrary to the consumer rights laws then laws are more important. Even more, you can get high penalties in EU if you even write such things on your website. (for example, in Poland you will get fine if you write that buyer sends back the product he don't like on his own cost).
5) In Poland (and several other countries) if you are not informed about your right to cancel the order in 10/14 days (in Poland it is not 14 but 10 days), you have 3 months to cancel the order. 3 months FROM THE DAY YOU FOUND OUT THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT TO CANCEL (!!!).
(DISCLAIMER: I am not 100% sure that 14 more days limit is respected in Sweden, althoug it is in Poland and several other EU countries that I am shipping my goods to. Similar with product-personalization - it is the trick many vendors use, but I am not an expert on Swedish local regulations, although they are similar in whole EU.)
1) KNC is registered in Sweden in EU. If you buy anything online you have right to cancel the purchase even 14 days after delivery. It does not apply to "professional buyers" such as entrepreneurs.
2) It is possible that you do not have to return the product in 14 days. You must inform seller in 14 days that you wish to cancel but than you have 14 more days to return the device. Seller even must pay back your shipping costs. So free mining for 28 days.
3) There is however way to block consumer right to cancel the order and return the product. If it is "personalized" before shipping it is considered "unreturnable". Now if you thought that KNC is adding you worker settings to the unit becouse they are nice, think again :-)
4) KNC and all other vendors might write anything they want in terms of ordering and shipping. If they are contrary to the consumer rights laws then laws are more important. Even more, you can get high penalties in EU if you even write such things on your website. (for example, in Poland you will get fine if you write that buyer sends back the product he don't like on his own cost).
5) In Poland (and several other countries) if you are not informed about your right to cancel the order in 10/14 days (in Poland it is not 14 but 10 days), you have 3 months to cancel the order. 3 months FROM THE DAY YOU FOUND OUT THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT TO CANCEL (!!!).
(DISCLAIMER: I am not 100% sure that 14 more days limit is respected in Sweden, althoug it is in Poland and several other EU countries that I am shipping my goods to. Similar with product-personalization - it is the trick many vendors use, but I am not an expert on Swedish local regulations, although they are similar in whole EU.)
When I asked for my refund there was nothing on site that said anything about production. in matter of fact it was just posted because im sure something is being monitored somewhere and they see a shit storm coming.
KNC made it very clear that you could get a refund right up to the time the units went to production.
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
You have the opportunity to make a tidy profit here, on ebay, a group buy with no problem at all.
This is not Deja Vu it's just bad timing on your part.
Let me know if you want help
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
You have the opportunity to make a tidy profit here, on ebay, a group buy with no problem at all.
This is not Deja Vu it's just bad timing on your part.
Let me know if you want help
Dont lie, shill.
Sam stated that you can refund in the shipping your order day.
Not unicorn october date with no chips yet.
KNC made it very clear that you could get a refund right up to the time the units went to production.
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
You have the opportunity to make a tidy profit here, on ebay, a group buy with no problem at all.
This is not Deja Vu it's just bad timing on your part.
Let me know if you want help
As you saw from their website, they are in production, you will likely have it in hand in a matter of weeks.
You have the opportunity to make a tidy profit here, on ebay, a group buy with no problem at all.
This is not Deja Vu it's just bad timing on your part.
Let me know if you want help
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