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Topic: Kobayashi and his malicious sellout 400 million USD - page 2. (Read 606 times)

hero member
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Did he even have the coins at that point and the instruction to sell the coins to raise funds? (I'm not saying he didn't, I really don't know)

As far as I know, he has been looking to sell since the 9th creditors meeting (27 Sept. 2017). So waiting until the prices were as high as they were in December to February worked out pretty well for him (it was at about $3.5k then).
full member
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I believe his job is to get the best price possible to reimburse those that lost out in the bankruptcy. If he didn't do that he would he would be negligent and get fired. His job description doesn't include any consideration to what effect that has on Bitcoin.


This. And it's good that he waited till Dec 2017 to sell instead of selling in say Dec 2015 when the market price was $170 and the sale would have tanked bitcoin to zero.

Did he even have the coins at that point and the instruction to sell the coins to raise funds? (I'm not saying he didn't, I really don't know)

I think you mean 'fall' instead of peak?

I said 'past its peak' which would be the same thing.


My bad, somehow I read it differently  Grin
hero member
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I think you mean 'fall' instead of peak?

I said 'past its peak' which would be the same thing.
full member
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The next court date is September 2018 so we have some breathing room, and the markets are recovering. For the folks who think the amount he sells is insignificant, any major sell causes market traders to sell so it is an avalanche effect.
He also said if he can, he will distribute the BTC instead of selling it.
sr. member
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This guy is obviously not a crypto lover and can’t be bother with BTC price. He is doing stuffs without thinking, he could have sell OTC instead of causing dips in bitcoin price. Hopefully he will handle the rest of BTC properly.
legendary
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I believe his job is to get the best price possible to reimburse those that lost out in the bankruptcy. If he didn't do that he would he would be negligent and get fired. His job description doesn't include any consideration to what effect that has on Bitcoin.


This. And it's good that he waited till Dec 2017 to sell instead of selling in say Dec 2015 when the market price was $170 and the sale would have tanked bitcoin to zero.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 123


You people do realize that 400m is peanuts in a 160b market? The guy just made a good call and sold his BTC at 10k, unlike many who tried the same.


'Peanuts' - yeah right. The marketcap is not reflective of the depth of a market.


Well given that remit he's performed pretty well but that's not really his doing, it just so happened the price went up exponentially in that period. I'm sure he'll still be facing questions as to why he didn't conduct a private sale at the time that he did decide to sell.

Sure, no doubt he got lucky, but that makes me think that the price having gone past its peak and starting to decline spurred him into action as opposed to his selling causing the peak.


I think you mean 'fall' instead of peak? That would make some sense, he probably was holding and then seeing the price go to 20k always had a stop loss in mind and that was probably around the 10k mark, then he maybe panicked around the 6k mark. I guess having a deadline on when he had to sell by didn't help. He did a good job given what he was tasked with but it just seems like he was a bit naive in his understanding of just how much he was selling to the market and what influence that would have.

newbie
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also if MrGox users lost only 200 milions why the fuck he cashout 400 milion? why the japan court allow this shit ?
this sounds very very fishy and dont think im conspiracy guy bicouse i really like to think about the shit it could happend bicouse only like this we might know the truth about MrGox hack

The lawsuit was for 850,000 Bitcoins that were lost, which at $483 in April 2014 per BTC comes out to $410 million.
hero member
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I believe his job is to get the best price possible to reimburse those that lost out in the bankruptcy. If he didn't do that he would he would be negligent and get fired. His job description doesn't include any consideration to what effect that has on Bitcoin.

You get a BETTER price at an auction. That is how the USA sells seized bitcoins. You might have to wait a few weeks, but the price is better. That is the reason I said I see malicious intent.

I don't think that is the reason the US uses auctions for seized coins. Ignoring Bitcoin for a moment the reason that assets are sold off by auction in bankruptcy and/or law enforcement confiscations is to guarantee a sale and that usually results in lower than market prices, especially when taking into consideration auctioneer fees. Using exchanges and/or OTC services isn't an option for many asset classes but when it is available it will generally result in better prices and lower fees than using an auction.



Well given that remit he's performed pretty well but that's not really his doing, it just so happened the price went up exponentially in that period. I'm sure he'll still be facing questions as to why he didn't conduct a private sale at the time that he did decide to sell.

Sure, no doubt he got lucky, but that makes me think that the price having gone past its peak and starting to decline spurred him into action as opposed to his selling causing the peak.
full member
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Nobuaki : "I will continue to consider whether, in the case where a distribution is possible, a distribution will be made by way of distributing BTC."
I don't know what that means, but it sounds like he will distribute the rest of the BTC to the creditors, instead of selling them himself and crashing the market.

You people do realize that 400m is peanuts in a 160b market? The guy just made a good call and sold his BTC at 10k, unlike many who tried the same.

He didn't cause the drop, unless you want to pin the whole reversal on him. It's natural that things sell-off after a mayor top, especially quite an exuberant one. There were many contributing factors, the mt gox sell-out was one of them, albeit a minor one.

Also.. claiming that OTC would be better than selling on the market. Ridiculous. It's not like OTC and regular market exist in vacuum, separated from each other.
hero member
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It does not have to be the ONLY factor in the matter. Whatever you can do, every bit will help. The opposing party will do whatever it can do to weaken THAT specific card. I am sure they have other cards, or factors they play with, but this is only one of them. According to Carnegie Europe, http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/75740?lang=en
The West is in the middle of an undeclared cyberwar with Russia. This could be a part of it. As you may have guessed, North Korea and Russia are high school buddies.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just thinking out loud that the chances of a grand conspiracy going on for the sake of North Korea is about as small as the amount involved. Doubling down on sanctions and asking for China's help will be much more efficient courses of action. It just seems way too roundabout in my opinion.

But yeah, to each his own. I'm probably just not the biggest fan of conspiracy theories.
full member
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Nobuaki : "I will continue to consider whether, in the case where a distribution is possible, a distribution will be made by way of distributing BTC."
I don't know what that means, but it sounds like he will distribute the rest of the BTC to the creditors, instead of selling them himself and crashing the market.
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 123

I'm more willing to believe that he's working with Roger Ver to try and crash bitcoin so that bitcoin cash can be number one. Of course we can't say with certainty what his reasoning is.

The plan isn't working if that's the case.
Rather than the flippening , we're close to a 1:10 ratio.


Not very well at all  Cheesy I don't believe it's that it just seems more conceivable than the original suggestion.

If that's his job then it does surely include a consideration of what happens to the bitcoin price, because by taking the path he's chosen it's meant that he has not got the best price he could have possibly got.

He surely didn't get the best price possible by using these tactics.

His job was to get the best price he could between the 9th creditors meeting (27 Sept. 2017) and the 10th creditors meeting (7th Mar 2018).  When he was given that task the price was around $3.5k and he managed to get an average of $10k so I think he'll be pretty pleased.


Well given that remit he's performed pretty well but that's not really his doing, it just so happened the price went up exponentially in that period. I'm sure he'll still be facing questions as to why he didn't conduct a private sale at the time that he did decide to sell.
full member
Activity: 490
Merit: 110
I believe his job is to get the best price possible to reimburse those that lost out in the bankruptcy. If he didn't do that he would he would be negligent and get fired. His job description doesn't include any consideration to what effect that has on Bitcoin.

You get a BETTER price at an auction. That is how the USA sells seized bitcoins. You might have to wait a few weeks, but the price is better. That is the reason I said I see malicious intent.

He probably doesn't have to consider that in a vacuum, no.

But it was irrational to dump high volume tranches into spot markets -- especially all at once, like he did -- since he obviously planned to sell additional tranches in the future. That's economic suicide in such a low liquidity environment as BTC markets. Even if selling on exchange markets was rational, he should have used iceberg orders over much longer periods of time. Dumping on spot markets at these volumes = significant slippage, which certainly wouldn't net the best possible price for creditors. He failed the creditors in both logic and practice.

The trustee obviously doesn't have experience as a fund manager, so I'm bewildered as to why he explicitly ignored the advice of multiple interested parties (Jesse Powell and Mark Karpeles to name a couple).

I'm still waiting to get a bit more information on this. He said he sold via exchanges but, for example, Bitfinex offers OTC services for large trades. He may well have used that and/or icebergs we really don't know. Most of the analysis I've seen claiming to identify drops caused by his dumping would have resulted in a much higher average price than the 10k he actually got. I'm taking a lot of what has been published about this with a pinch of salt.


He got an offer from KRAKENFX to sell that in the darkpool which he refused. The darkpool would not cause a market crash and he could still sell it fast.
Another point as to why this is malicious, another pin in the coffin.

Japan is acting along and collaborating with USA, dropping the price intentionally. The reason for that is the meeting between the president Trumpovski and Kim Jong Unovski.
Trumpovski wants sanctions to be effective, and Kim Jong Unovski wants to bypass sanctions using BTC (all that South Korean hacks and such if ya all remember). Kim wants to go to the table claiming he can do it, Trumpovski wants to strengthen his hand saying that no dude, you cannot do that because BTC price is frigging low.
So, there you go. We are all victims of an international bargain.
Any other theories? Let's see it.

I feel like this is too much of a stretch. North Korea can use Bitcoin to go around sanctions, but there's no way it alone will ever be enough to even come close to solving any of their problems.

According to this article, it is estimated that North Korea made around $200 million off cryptocurrencies last year.

According to this site, North Korea spends around $15 billion on their military annually.

If we go by these figures, then Bitcoin at most provided only 1.3% of their military budget alone. It's far too little to really provoke any grand conspiracies in my opinion. I would also like to note that North Korea has been softening their stance lately, so there's little point in ramping up the chokehold at the moment.

It does not have to be the ONLY factor in the matter. Whatever you can do, every bit will help. The opposing party will do whatever it can do to weaken THAT specific card. I am sure they have other cards, or factors they play with, but this is only one of them. According to Carnegie Europe, http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/75740?lang=en
The West is in the middle of an undeclared cyberwar with Russia. This could be a part of it. As you may have guessed, North Korea and Russia are high school buddies.

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
He probably doesn't have to consider that in a vacuum, no.

But it was irrational to dump high volume tranches into spot markets -- especially all at once, like he did -- since he obviously planned to sell additional tranches in the future. That's economic suicide in such a low liquidity environment as BTC markets. Even if selling on exchange markets was rational, he should have used iceberg orders over much longer periods of time. Dumping on spot markets at these volumes = significant slippage, which certainly wouldn't net the best possible price for creditors. He failed the creditors in both logic and practice.

The trustee obviously doesn't have experience as a fund manager, so I'm bewildered as to why he explicitly ignored the advice of multiple interested parties (Jesse Powell and Mark Karpeles to name a couple).

I'm still waiting to get a bit more information on this. He said he sold via exchanges but, for example, Bitfinex offers OTC services for large trades. He may well have used that and/or icebergs we really don't know. Most of the analysis I've seen claiming to identify drops caused by his dumping would have resulted in a much higher average price than the 10k he actually got. I'm taking a lot of what has been published about this with a pinch of salt.

Fair enough, I agree we don't have all the information here. The report isn't explicit at all. I guess I just assumed that if he were selling OTC that he wouldn't mention exchanges. The blockchain movements and Jesse Powell phrasing it literally as dumping on exchanges isn't enough to jump to conclusions. Maybe we're jumping the gun.

About the average price -- looks like the biggest tranche sold (by far) was moved near the very bottom at $6,000.

I'll say this. From reading the report and Q&A, I get the feeling this guy gets a kick out of dumping on us. Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 1081
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I love technology.
I believe his job is to get the best price possible to reimburse those that lost out in the bankruptcy. If he didn't do that he would he would be negligent and get fired. His job description doesn't include any consideration to what effect that has on Bitcoin.


He surely didn't get the best price possible by using these tactics.

Agreed. I still think we are missing something here.

Could the coins have been sold to a private investor without the public knowing? And this is than the buyer offloading the coins for their own personal gains?

hero member
Activity: 1834
Merit: 759
Japan is acting along and collaborating with USA, dropping the price intentionally. The reason for that is the meeting between the president Trumpovski and Kim Jong Unovski.
Trumpovski wants sanctions to be effective, and Kim Jong Unovski wants to bypass sanctions using BTC (all that South Korean hacks and such if ya all remember). Kim wants to go to the table claiming he can do it, Trumpovski wants to strengthen his hand saying that no dude, you cannot do that because BTC price is frigging low.
So, there you go. We are all victims of an international bargain.
Any other theories? Let's see it.

I feel like this is too much of a stretch. North Korea can use Bitcoin to go around sanctions, but there's no way it alone will ever be enough to even come close to solving any of their problems.

According to this article, it is estimated that North Korea made around $200 million off cryptocurrencies last year.

According to this site, North Korea spends around $15 billion on their military annually.

If we go by these figures, then Bitcoin at most provided only 1.3% of their military budget alone. It's far too little to really provoke any grand conspiracies in my opinion. I would also like to note that North Korea has been softening their stance lately, so there's little point in ramping up the chokehold at the moment.
jr. member
Activity: 224
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Seems a nice story, but anyone know how many $ left they have to refund? The refunds must always be in national currency ($), so i don't think is important how many btc left they have, or am i wrong?
Anyone know how many $ they need to refund and how many $ they have already refunded?
hero member
Activity: 2576
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He probably doesn't have to consider that in a vacuum, no.

But it was irrational to dump high volume tranches into spot markets -- especially all at once, like he did -- since he obviously planned to sell additional tranches in the future. That's economic suicide in such a low liquidity environment as BTC markets. Even if selling on exchange markets was rational, he should have used iceberg orders over much longer periods of time. Dumping on spot markets at these volumes = significant slippage, which certainly wouldn't net the best possible price for creditors. He failed the creditors in both logic and practice.

The trustee obviously doesn't have experience as a fund manager, so I'm bewildered as to why he explicitly ignored the advice of multiple interested parties (Jesse Powell and Mark Karpeles to name a couple).

I'm still waiting to get a bit more information on this. He said he sold via exchanges but, for example, Bitfinex offers OTC services for large trades. He may well have used that and/or icebergs we really don't know. Most of the analysis I've seen claiming to identify drops caused by his dumping would have resulted in a much higher average price than the 10k he actually got. I'm taking a lot of what has been published about this with a pinch of salt.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
I believe his job is to get the best price possible to reimburse those that lost out in the bankruptcy. If he didn't do that he would he would be negligent and get fired. His job description doesn't include any consideration to what effect that has on Bitcoin.

He probably doesn't have to consider that in a vacuum, no.

But it was irrational to dump high volume tranches into spot markets -- especially all at once, like he did -- since he obviously planned to sell additional tranches in the future. That's economic suicide in such a low liquidity environment as BTC markets. Even if selling on exchange markets was rational, he should have used iceberg orders over much longer periods of time. Dumping on spot markets at these volumes = significant slippage, which certainly wouldn't net the best possible price for creditors. He failed the creditors in both logic and practice.

The trustee obviously doesn't have experience as a fund manager, so I'm bewildered as to why he explicitly ignored the advice of multiple interested parties (Jesse Powell and Mark Karpeles to name a couple).
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