Kraken has BTC at $1186.54 USD at the same time Bitstamp is $1170.88 USD. ????

Wayan_Pedjeng

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Quote from: topesis on April 17, 2017, 12:12:39 AM

The price variation in Bitcoin price is a common thing in the space, it is not a supermarket product where the price is fixed, this depends on the buying power and selling power on each exchanges.

The confirmation also takes a lot of time. So even if we move funds from one exchange to another, the balance is not going to get updated for 1-2 hours. This is having an impact on the exchange rates.

topesis

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The price variation in Bitcoin price is a common thing in the space, it is not a supermarket product where the price is fixed, this depends on the buying power and selling power on each exchanges.

aardvark15

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There's going to be some minor variation in Bitcoin price between exchanges because there are different customers at each exchange. Even within an exchange different customers have different prices at which they will buy or sell Bitcoins. The customer sets the price.

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: Red-Apple on April 15, 2017, 07:25:50 AM

let me crunch some numbers (please tell me if i made any errors anywhere):

- deposit $1000 to bitstamp and pay $5 fee
- buy $1000 worth of bitcoin in (on? at?) bitstamp at $1170.88 you pay $2.5 fee and get 0.85192333BTC
- withdraw bitcoin to kraken and pay nothing! or 0.1% with bitgo (apparently)

- sell bitcoin at $1186.54 and get $1010.54 and pay $2.62 fee so you are left with $1008.21
- withdraw to your bank and if you pay the same fee as bitstamp you end up making $3.21

this is 0.32% profit. if you think the risk is ok such as price changing up and down, withdrawals getting stuck and taking long, ... then do it.

I went over the numbers above and was able to get the profit to almost 1% (about 00.98%), most of that extra coming from minimizing the cost of sending from and to the USA bank. Sending $1k at a time both ways is going to cost a lot more on a per dollar basis than sending larger amounts both ways.

However, as mentioned, liquidity, USA banking hassles, and needing very large volume are problems.

Also is the spread we based the figures on an average spread?
This will add or subtract from the average net profit per transaction.

iamTom123

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Quote from: Red-Apple on April 15, 2017, 07:25:50 AM

let me crunch some numbers (please tell me if i made any errors anywhere):

- deposit $1000 to bitstamp and pay $5 fee
- buy $1000 worth of bitcoin in (on? at?) bitstamp at $1170.88 you pay $2.5 fee and get 0.85192333BTC
- withdraw bitcoin to kraken and pay nothing! or 0.1% with bitgo (apparently)

- sell bitcoin at $1186.54 and get $1010.54 and pay $2.62 fee so you are left with $1008.21
- withdraw to your bank and if you pay the same fee as bitstamp you end up making $3.21

this is 0.32% profit. if you think the risk is ok such as price changing up and down, withdrawals getting stuck and taking long, ... then do it.

You just put the last nail on the coffin, so to speak. Had arbitrage been that profitable then we could have heard many people doing it but it is not that is why only fools can be doing it. It is not that easy to move funds from one exchange into another and by the time you can be able to do it the Bitcoin value has already moved away from our computation. Arbitrage is a good business unfortunately it is not possible and profitable here in Bitcoin. Trading is much better to do on cryptocurrency , that is aside from just holding our own Bitcoin somewhere.

Yuuto

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The overall, bitcoin market exists but the cryptocurrency exchanges make up the buy/sell orders, they are not connected between each other.
So for example, poloniex hold a big part of the bitcoin trading volume. But the orders that have been set in poloniex orderbook, are not available for example in bittrex.

That causes the difference between bitcoin price, and the same thing is about other cryptocurrencies.
There is also fee involved, every exchange has its own fee, so it also might change the price ( if it counted in ).

If you use Preev.com, you can choose the exchange, and look for the price. Of course you can change it, and there are prices on every exchange available.

Gogo ppp

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"There are also potential problems moving large sums by bankwire out of a US bank and back.
Likely that some accounts would be closed, as US banks are afraid of being accused of aiding money laundering and they are too short sighted (and basically stupid) to accept bitcoin arbing as a legitimate financial activity."

The potential arbing would be aided if exchange to exchange currency transfers were allowed, as some sportsbooks allow (or used to allow) book to book transfers for no charge.
But it won't happen due to the above board financial dealings of the exchanges and the USA's AML/KYC laws.

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: Red-Apple on April 15, 2017, 07:25:50 AM

let me crunch some numbers (please tell me if i made any errors anywhere):

- deposit $1000 to bitstamp and pay $5 fee
- buy $1000 worth of bitcoin in (on? at?) bitstamp at $1170.88 you pay $2.5 fee and get 0.85192333BTC
- withdraw bitcoin to kraken and pay nothing! or 0.1% with bitgo (apparently)

- sell bitcoin at $1186.54 and get $1010.54 and pay $2.62 fee so you are left with $1008.21
- withdraw to your bank and if you pay the same fee as bitstamp you end up making $3.21

this is 0.32% profit. if you think the risk is ok such as price changing up and down, withdrawals getting stuck and taking long, ... then do it.

It's possible to up the 00.32% figure, but the arbing would have to be done at high volume to make worthwhile money and then there is the problem of USD trading liquidity at these exchanges as alyssa85 and serje mention.

There are also potential problems moving large sums by bankwire out of a US bank and back.
Likely that some accounts would be closed, as US banks are afraid of being accused of aiding money laundering and they are too short sighted (and basically stupid) to accept bitcoin arbing as a legitimate financial activity.

serje

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Code:

Lowest ask Price

1184.162 USD

Highest Bid Price

1180.169 USD

even btc-e.com has different prices!

check volume and then think about arbitrage trading!
`

not to mention bitfinex price

Code:

1BTC=1205$

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: alyssa85 on April 15, 2017, 06:54:13 AM

Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 14, 2017, 09:33:51 PM

How can this be?

I confirmed the numbers as I posted.

I'm lacking some basic fact, as otherwise arbers would knock these prices to the same figure in an instant.

Please help me understand this.

Thanks.

They can't arb "in an instant".

It takes about an hour and a half these days for bitcoin deposits to confirm due to the transaction backlog. And it takes time to wire fiat to the exchanges too (about 24 hours, and remember that the fiat people don't work on weekends or bank holidays like good friday).

Add in that Kraken is primarily a EURO exchange, and therefore most bitcoin trading there happens in euros (because SEPA makes it easy for europeans to transfer fiat to and from the exchange), and the issues with kraken's btc/USD pair is likely down to liquidity.

In other words, not many people are trading BTC/USD, which is why it is lagging. All the trades happen in the BTC/EUR pair.

"They can't arb "in an instant".

It takes about an hour and a half these days for bitcoin deposits to confirm due to the transaction backlog. And it takes time to wire fiat to the exchanges too (about 24 hours, and remember that the fiat people don't work on weekends or bank holidays like good friday)."

Yes, I agree.

But these are not momentary arbs that pop up and are gone in an instant like sportsbetting arbs.

These type spreads are available on a daily basis.
So one would load up funds at the exchanges, and then they would be arbed instantly if there was a (worthwhile) profit there.

"Add in that Kraken is primarily a EURO exchange, and therefore most bitcoin trading there happens in euros (because SEPA makes it easy for europeans to transfer fiat to and from the exchange), and the issues with kraken's btc/USD pair is likely down to liquidity."

This is an interesting point which I hadn't thought about, and may provide the answer or at least part of it.

Later today I'll pay attention to the liquidity of the BTC/USD situation at Kraken (if I can figure out how to read the site's info).

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 15, 2017, 12:31:32 AM

Kraken and Bitstamp will both pay in USD.
The fees for trades are 0.25%
There is a small fee to withdraw USD after selling BTC and then the cost (if any) of them sending a Bankwire.

So it would definitely be profitable if there's nothing else involved.

if it is profitable, then just stop talking and do it! Cheesy

I don't know withdrawal fees for kraken and if they even offer usd withdrawal at the moment (when going to funding page, there is no withdrawal option)
But I saw that Bitstamp is charging 0.5% deposit fee. So trading fees will be ~0.5 or 0.6% in total plus deposit fee of bitstamp you are at total 1 - 1.1%.
Plus the unknown withdrawal fee at kraken as soon there is one.

Price difference was only 1.33%. So even if withdrawal at kraken would be possible, it is hardly profitable, in case they charge simular withdrawal fee, like bitstamps deposit fee.

"if it is profitable, then just stop talking and do it! Cheesy

"

In general, I agree fully.
But there are many sharp people involved in this and some of them with large bankrolls - a profitable situation in plain view would be gone rapidly if it were indeed profitable. So I'm convinced I'm not seeing something.

"But I saw that Bitstamp is charging 0.5% deposit fee."

It's 0.05%.

"International bank transfer deposits carry 0.05% deposit fee on our side (minimum fee = 7.5 USD/EUR).
Plus your bank's charge for an international wire transfer.

"I don't know withdrawal fees for kraken and if they even offer usd withdrawal at the moment (when going to funding page, there is no withdrawal option)"

"USD Bank Wire Deposit ($5 USD) - US only"
"USD Bank Wire Withdrawal ($5 USD) - US only"
Plus the cost of your bank's charge for an international bankwire

Red-Apple

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let me crunch some numbers (please tell me if i made any errors anywhere):

- deposit $1000 to bitstamp and pay $5 fee
- buy $1000 worth of bitcoin in (on? at?) bitstamp at $1170.88 you pay $2.5 fee and get 0.85192333BTC
- withdraw bitcoin to kraken and pay nothing! or 0.1% with bitgo (apparently)

- sell bitcoin at $1186.54 and get $1010.54 and pay $2.62 fee so you are left with $1008.21
- withdraw to your bank and if you pay the same fee as bitstamp you end up making $3.21

this is 0.32% profit. if you think the risk is ok such as price changing up and down, withdrawals getting stuck and taking long, ... then do it.

alyssa85

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Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 14, 2017, 09:33:51 PM

How can this be?

I confirmed the numbers as I posted.

I'm lacking some basic fact, as otherwise arbers would knock these prices to the same figure in an instant.

Please help me understand this.

Thanks.

They can't arb "in an instant".

It takes about an hour and a half these days for bitcoin deposits to confirm due to the transaction backlog. And it takes time to wire fiat to the exchanges too (about 24 hours, and remember that the fiat people don't work on weekends or bank holidays like good friday).

Add in that Kraken is primarily a EURO exchange, and therefore most bitcoin trading there happens in euros (because SEPA makes it easy for europeans to transfer fiat to and from the exchange), and the issues with kraken's btc/USD pair is likely down to liquidity.

In other words, not many people are trading BTC/USD, which is why it is lagging. All the trades happen in the BTC/EUR pair.

layoutph

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To answer the OP, Crypto trading sites are like water, always finding its level. So if you spot a coin from Crypto trading #1 far greater from Crypto trading #2 site. Then traders usually send their coins from trading site #2 to trading site #1 thats what they called Arbitrate to take advantage of coin's value and get a profit. But soon their price will synchronize. Once you spot, do it immediately.

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 15, 2017, 03:10:24 AM

Quote from: Qartada on April 15, 2017, 02:43:13 AM

Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 14, 2017, 09:33:51 PM

How can this be?

I confirmed the numbers as I posted.

I'm lacking some basic fact, as otherwise arbers would knock these prices to the same figure in an instant.

Please help me understand this.

Thanks.

There are two main factors that would stop arbitrage traders from stopping these inefficiencies.

-A high spread (gap between buy and sell price) which would decrease the profits.

-Fees from converting Bitcoin to fiat and back again, along with exchange fees, removing the profits.

It's probably a combination of the two. BitFinex has a much higher price but they're not currently allowing USD withdrawals so it doesn't really count. It could also be that there is some inconvenience with withdrawals/deposits on either exchange which outweighs the benefits. The chances are that at least two, possibly all three, of these factors apply.

Even without arbitrage trading it's a good way of finding which exchange to buy on or sell on when you're buying or selling large amounts.

"-A high spread (gap between buy and sell price) which would decrease the profits."

Didn't you mean a low spread?

Obviously if it costs more to buy than to sell it's a loss from go.

The higher the spread - with a higher price at one exchange that others will buy at and a lower price at the other exchange that you can buy - is more profitable.

"BitFinex has a much higher price but they're not currently allowing USD withdrawals so it doesn't really count."

BitFinex allows USD deposit/withdrawals.

Coincidentally got my Bitfinex verification approval email while responding to this thread and it says "You can now deposit and withdrawal USD and USD₮."

Thus posted above.

But I just logged in and see there are a lot of problems there including processing USD withdrawals. (But no problem accepting USD deposits!).

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: Qartada on April 15, 2017, 02:43:13 AM

Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 14, 2017, 09:33:51 PM

How can this be?

I confirmed the numbers as I posted.

I'm lacking some basic fact, as otherwise arbers would knock these prices to the same figure in an instant.

Please help me understand this.

Thanks.

There are two main factors that would stop arbitrage traders from stopping these inefficiencies.

-A high spread (gap between buy and sell price) which would decrease the profits.

-Fees from converting Bitcoin to fiat and back again, along with exchange fees, removing the profits.

It's probably a combination of the two. BitFinex has a much higher price but they're not currently allowing USD withdrawals so it doesn't really count. It could also be that there is some inconvenience with withdrawals/deposits on either exchange which outweighs the benefits. The chances are that at least two, possibly all three, of these factors apply.

Even without arbitrage trading it's a good way of finding which exchange to buy on or sell on when you're buying or selling large amounts.

"-A high spread (gap between buy and sell price) which would decrease the profits."

Didn't you mean a low spread?

Obviously if it costs more to buy than to sell it's a loss from go.

The higher the spread - with a higher price at one exchange that others will buy at and a lower price at the other exchange that you can buy - is more profitable.

"BitFinex has a much higher price but they're not currently allowing USD withdrawals so it doesn't really count."

BitFinex allows USD deposit/withdrawals.

alani123

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Different exchanges, different rules. Liquidity at those two is wildly different so hard swings are unlikely to see a swift follow up in each market since the speed at which traders can close gaps depends on underlying liquidity and apparently accounts in one exchange are harder to fund than the other.

Qartada

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Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 14, 2017, 09:33:51 PM

How can this be?

I confirmed the numbers as I posted.

I'm lacking some basic fact, as otherwise arbers would knock these prices to the same figure in an instant.

Please help me understand this.

Thanks.

There are two main factors that would stop arbitrage traders from stopping these inefficiencies.

-A high spread (gap between buy and sell price) which would decrease the profits.

-Fees from converting Bitcoin to fiat and back again, along with exchange fees, removing the profits.

It's probably a combination of the two. BitFinex has a much higher price but they're not currently allowing USD withdrawals so it doesn't really count. It could also be that there is some inconvenience with withdrawals/deposits on either exchange which outweighs the benefits. The chances are that at least two, possibly all three, of these factors apply.

Even without arbitrage trading it's a good way of finding which exchange to buy on or sell on when you're buying or selling large amounts.

Gogo ppp

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Gogo ppp on April 14, 2017, 09:33:51 PM

How can this be?

I confirmed the numbers as I posted.

I'm lacking some basic fact, as otherwise arbers would knock these prices to the same figure in an instant.

Please help me understand this.

Thanks.

just try to arb and you will see why nobody is doing it. there is no profit (cause if high fees or not able to withdraw usd)

Kraken and Bitstamp will both pay in USD.
The fees for trades are 0.25%
There is a small fee to withdraw USD after selling BTC and then the cost (if any) of them sending a Bankwire.

So it would definitely be profitable if there's nothing else involved.

Patatas

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Quote from: JeffBrad12 on April 14, 2017, 11:05:13 PM

Do you mean the demand and supply not decide the bitcoin price at the moment?

Nope that;s what exactly opposite of what I said.It's only demand and supply that determines the price of bitcoin.My point being,some exchanges determine the prices of bitcoin due to the statistics of trading volumes on their sites instead of depending on other major players like coinbase.

If you interested in further reading : https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#what-determines-bitcoins-price

Topic: Kraken has BTC at $1186.54 USD at the same time Bitstamp is $1170.88 USD. ???? (Read 2085 times)