Kremlin vs bitcoiners. - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: stompix on May 23, 2020, 05:33:11 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on May 22, 2020, 05:30:37 PM

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

It's not that simple, we're talking about basically a dictatorship here
It is normal for any dictator and his elite to seek any kind of revenue from everything, from faking goods, selling counterfeit currency, involving in smuggling, everything till...anyone dealing with this is seen as gathering too much power and the thing is considered to be dangerous to the foundation of the party and terminated.
If Putin decides this thing could give too much power to somebody and be outside its total control it's game over!

watch this snippet from an interview with putin: https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1255160696461037574

putin understands very well that russia can't control bitcoin. the central bank also recently acknowledged that a ban is actually impossible: https://beincrypto.com/russian-central-bank-admits-it-cant-ban-bitcoin/

a ban on bitcoin would be like a ban on gold---unenforceable, and would make the government look very impotent. these conflicting bills that keep being proposed are IMO more about political posturing and power brokering than an actual ban.

Harlot

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Quote from: https://btcmanager.com/russian-government-fines-imprisonment-illegal-crypto/?q=/russian-government-fines-imprisonment-illegal-crypto/&q=/russian-government-fines-imprisonment-illegal-crypto/

According to a report by the local news outlet RBC on Thursday (May 21, 2020), the State Duma, Russia’s parliament, received a fresh set of draft bills on the regulation of cryptocurrency and crypto activities. The bills are an amendment to Russia’s criminal code and Code of Administrative Offences.

As contained in the draft bills, individuals and crypto businesses guilty of cryptocurrency violations will be made to pay hefty fines or serve jail terms. Also, the amendments will prohibit initial coin offerings (ICO) in Russia.

I can understand the jail terms and fine being implemented for every illegal actions made by individuals and businesses since it will be part of their amended criminal code but what I don't understand is why ban ICOs in general? News in Russia is certainly unclear since it is always back and forth of the Russian government in one day supporting crypto and in another they are opposing the crypto industry hopefully this news isn't true since if the ICO market lost Russia then it is another top market country not being able to take part of the demand.

Jating

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Is there something new here? This is forth coming as we have seen Russian's stance keeps changing since 2017 so I'm not surprise by this.

@sheenshane - I do hope that you have been following's the government stance since 2017 because all they did was totally contradicting themselves. If you haven't follow them, then I suggest you do a research and you will find out everything. And remember the so called mining farms in Russia? We really don't know what happen then, it was reported, if I'm not mistaken in 2018 and then boom? Never heard of it again. Putin will never allow something that they can't control specially giving too much freedom, like bitcoin.

sheenshane

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Quote from: stompix on May 23, 2020, 05:33:11 AM

It's not that simple, we're talking about basically a dictatorship here

This.
This only shows how serious their country when it comes to implementing a law though it may sound unjustifiable, but we aren't the citizens of Russia. But for them or the Russian citizen, they get used to this kind of punishment. Russia is an authoritarian country and if they said something then it must be done it will be really hard for their citizens to get involved in Bitcoins if their government will give this sanctions to law violators.

However, it's still early for us to be alarmed things might still change especially when Putin gets to know the advantages of bitcoin and that some countries have started to embrace it. This is the might reason, " Blow To Bitcoin As Russia Moves To Effectively Ban Crypto ".

gentlemand

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Quote from: stompix on May 23, 2020, 05:33:11 AM

If the Putin decides this thing could give too much power to somebody and be outside its total control it's game over!

Total illegality could work rather nicely for them. Many people will ignore it. They will all be very straightforward and juicy targets. A world where Bitcoin thrives outside and continues to enter Russia ready to be grabbed wherever it can be found would be a lucrative one.

Where that might blow up in their faces is if it starts to be used widely in conventional finance. If Russia's a total no go in that scenario it might start to hurt their bottom line. You can be a thieving gangster but also want to do legit ish business with the rest of the world too.

stompix

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Quote from: malevolent on May 23, 2020, 12:51:58 AM

The FSB is said to have a at least a five-figure amount of bitcoins stolen from Wex, it'd be easier to launder or make use of them if their country's laws weren't overly draconian.

They are already granted by law since KGB times the means of self-funding, they can sell or lease, import, and export anything as long as it is considered a source of funding activities as long as this doesn't go against anything else in their statute. I doubt that those bitcoins are still in the organization's possession and haven't yet either sold to fund it or sold to....who it needed to be sold.

Quote from: figmentofmyass on May 22, 2020, 05:30:37 PM

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

It's not that simple, we're talking about basically a dictatorship here
It is normal for any dictator and his elite to seek any kind of revenue from everything, from faking goods, selling counterfeit currency, involving in smuggling, everything till...anyone dealing with this is seen as gathering too much power and the thing is considered to be dangerous to the foundation of the party and terminated.
If Putin decides this thing could give too much power to somebody and be outside its total control it's game over!

malevolent

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Quote from: gentlemand on May 23, 2020, 03:34:45 AM

The FSB can do whatever the hell they like. Law does or doesn't apply to whomever their masters choose. Russia is basically a very large mechanism designed to transfer money into a small number of pockets at the top.

It's always more convenient to have a veneer of legitimacy when trying get rid of or undermine someone who has become a thorn in a side, and blatant law-breakers make for the easiest targets.

gentlemand

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Quote from: malevolent on May 23, 2020, 12:51:58 AM

The FSB is said to have a at least a five-figure amount of bitcoins stolen from Wex, it'd be easier to launder or make use of them if their country's laws weren't overly draconian.

The FSB can do whatever the hell they like. Law does or doesn't apply to whomever their masters choose. Russia is basically a very large mechanism designed to transfer money into a small number of pockets at the top.

malevolent

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Quote from: gentlemand on May 22, 2020, 04:11:48 PM

If this is some sort of 4D chess against crypto they've blown it miserably. Russia is a nothing when it could've been something. And no one else cares.

Most likely a struggle between rival factions, even in autocracies such as Russia or China more than a single person or entity gets to have a say how things are ran.

Quote from: figmentofmyass on May 22, 2020, 05:30:37 PM

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

The FSB is said to have a at least a five-figure amount of bitcoins stolen from Wex, it'd be easier to launder or make use of them if their country's laws weren't overly draconian.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: jseverson on May 22, 2020, 09:13:34 AM

Putin has flip-flopped for the longest time, but it looks like it's inevitable this time.

inevitable, why?

there has been longstanding disagreement between russia's central bank and the ministry of finance about how to address cryptocurrency. the former wants to ban it, the latter wants to legalize and regulate.

meanwhile the duma has been at a standstill on the matter for many years, state-owned utilities are building mining farms, and local governors are trying to attract bitcoin miners to their provinces.
https://www.coindesk.com/a-russian-nuclear-plant-is-renting-space-to-energy-hungry-bitcoin-miners
https://news.bitcoin.com/russian-governor-cryptocurrency-miners-mining-farms-leningrad/

i have a feeling too many russian political elites are already invested in bitcoin or bitcoin infrastructure to allow this sort of bill to pass. considering the shaky crude oil market and their dependence on it, russia also needs to consider the tax revenues and diversification that regulated crypto mining and trading could bring.

gentlemand

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Yeah.

Right.

I really hope the rest of Russia isn't run along these lines because their whole crypto apocalypse has been a fucking joke from second one. Have they actually passed any laws at all yet? They've had several years to do it.

One day Putin is being put on the blockchain. The next day you're going to get a pint of radioactive tea courtesy of the FSB if have a scroll through Coindesk.

If this is some sort of 4D chess against crypto they've blown it miserably. Russia is a nothing when it could've been something. And no one else cares.

stompix

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Quote from: Captain-Cryptory on May 22, 2020, 08:55:40 AM

What's you though?

You posted it in legal, so we should discuss it from the legal point of view? Then, there is not much to talk about it.

If Putin approves, it will be done, and once he does its a matter of how much do they really want to curb usage in the country.
There are hundreds of laws in Russia but enforcing them it's another thing, if they will simply use it as a means to target individuals most of the users can still fly below the radar and will not get in trouble. If it's an all-out crackdown on it, then it's simply game over. he fine might not scare a few of the big users, but if it comes to prison time, this is not Norway where prison cells are more comfortable than 99% of the homes in Eastern Europe.

I tried following the Russian topics but google translate is really annoying so it would be nice if a few of the Russian speakers would come here and explain more about that proposal.

LeGaulois

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It's still draft bills, the time it takes to become law, pigs will fly. I mean it can take a long time (up to years) and a lot of things can happen between. Especially since, as the article quotes, the authorities disagree with each other.

For companies I don't think it's a big deal, they will need to be listed on the central bank’s register to continue business and if they can't be listed it's just a matter to change the business location to another country. Companies won't hesitate to do it.

For individuals, it will mean better to not use anything related to banks/payment processors/VISA,MC to buy/sell/exchange tokens.

Yes, I believe the punishment is severe, but Russia is usually severe with everything

pjcaruci

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I believe that this violates the rights of traders in their country, will they really do this?

jseverson

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Quote from: Captain-Cryptory on May 22, 2020, 08:55:40 AM

Isn't it rather disproportionately severe punishment that might be established by the government of country where the majority of the population are the poor? What's you though?

It is, but they're also an authoritarian country which can get away with most of what they want. The penalties are a reflection of how resolute they are in their stance, and they obviously don't want crypto being handled at all:

Quote from: https://www.forbes.com/sites/billybambrough/2020/03/21/blow-to-bitcoin-as-russia-moves-to-effectively-ban-crypto/#61ef39f65c63

"We believe there are big risks of legalizing the operations with the cryptocurrencies, from the standpoint of financial stability, money laundering prevention and consumer protection," Russia's central bank head of legal, Alexey Guznov, told Russia news agency Interfax this week in comments translated to English via Google.

"We are opposed to the fact that there are institutions that organize the release of cryptocurrency and facilitate its circulation," Guznov said, adding the coming bill "directly formulates a ban on the issue, as well as on the organization of circulation of cryptocurrency, and introduces liability for violation of this ban."

This article was from two months ago. Putin has flip-flopped for the longest time, but it looks like it's inevitable this time.

Captain-Cryptory

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Topic: Kremlin vs bitcoiners. - page 2. (Read 898 times)