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Topic: Krux Hardware Signer - new release v24.03.0 (Read 215 times)

newbie
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Merit: 0
April 10, 2024, 10:11:40 PM
#20
Krux mentioned again on the BitcoinReview podcast!

https://youtu.be/tCrWvIwV9co?si=Vzb2MGICNR5fER6F&t=3441
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
When considering the use of BIP85 child seeds as passphrases, or any other deterministic approach, it's important to be aware that an attacker could potentially brute-force the second secret (the passphrase) from the first secret (the BIP39 mnemonic).

The attacker would have to brute force a combination of secrets: the child seed used as a seed, and the child seed used as a passphrase.

To do this, the attacker would have to have access to the parent seed and would have to know the person is using BIP85 and know the wallet uses a passphrase.  And the attacker would have to check all combinations of all possible indexes at all possible child seed lengths.

I'd say using a seed with a standard passphrase is only more secure than my approach if the passphrase is at least 6 words long - but that introduces risks such as typos and loss, not to mention the need for easy access to the passphrase every time the wallet is used, which means greater risk the passphrase will be found.  My method eliminates the possibility of typos, it includes redundant backups, and since the version of my parent seed kept in my home is encrypted with a very strong key, there's no risk of it being accessed by a thief.  If somebody broke into my safe deposit box at the bank, they'd find a metal backup of a seed, which means they'd find 24 words, but they'd have no way of knowing how they're used.  If somebody breaks into the safe in my home they probably need an ambulance.

All of that being said...  the most important part of my setup is security of the parent seed.  As we know, all Bitcoin owners should back up their seed on paper and metal, secured in 2 locations only they have access to...  but sadly, most Bitcoin owners don't do that.  I definitely do.

P.S.

when communicating with others, I emphasize the importance of caution, backups and tests.

That's one of my (many) favorite things about Krux.  The clarity and simplicity of your interface makes testing so easy, not to mention the fact that Krux does Testnet.  I recommend Krux to people even if they're not going to use it as their hardware wallet / signer because it's so easy to test and prove just about every aspect of a wallet is what you think it is.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 27
I use 2 Kruxes.  One does BIP85.  The other is my wallet.
Load the 24 word child seed via BIP85 on one Krux.  Scan it with the other.  Reboot the first Krux & load the 12 word passphrase via BIP85.  Scan it with the other.

With Krux, it's possible to create a variety of complex puzzles. I personally enjoy designing them, using two Krux devices, combining elements such as encryption, encodings, mnemonics, keys, and passphrases. Now on beta there are account derivations and BIP85 to further enrich the puzzle-making experience.

In the device's user interface, we strive to minimize excessive warnings and avoid blocking features 'for the safety of the user.' However, when communicating with others, I emphasize the importance of caution, backups and tests. Complex puzzles can be bewildering and splitting a wallet's secret into 'x of x' parts can introduce additional risks.
Be careful Wink!

When considering the use of BIP85 child seeds as passphrases, or any other deterministic approach, it's important to be aware that an attacker could potentially brute-force the second secret (the passphrase) from the first secret (the BIP39 mnemonic). As a result, this method introduces a less secure layer compared to adding a non-deterministic secret to your setup.
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
🚨Beta24 highly experimental available!

✅BIP85
✅Change accounts derivation
✅New wallet login and customizations
✅Hide mnemonics security setting
✅Cube screen optimizations

VIDEO > https://twitter.com/selfcustodykrux/status/1776617270078284246

Where to get Krux BETA binaries > https://github.com/odudex/krux_binaries/

I'm already testing it.  And loving it.

This update simplifies my overall setup while GREATLY increasing my security.

I use 2 Kruxes.  One does BIP85.  The other is my wallet.

Load the 24 word child seed via BIP85 on one Krux.  Scan it with the other.  Reboot the first Krux & load the 12 word passphrase via BIP85.  Scan it with the other.

Load, scan.
Load, scan.
Done.

This allows me to use my wallet stateless without ever needing to get my wallet's seed or passphrase out of the safes where they're locked up.  My parent seed (which is encrypted) generates the child seeds to build my wallet.  This takes just a few seconds.

Quote
"One Seed to rule them all, One Key to find them, One Path to bring them all, And in cryptography bind them."
-- github: bip-0085.mediawiki

In terms of security:

If my Krux devices get stolen...  there's nothing on 'em.  If my parent seed gets found or stolen...  it's encrypted, but it wouldn't matter anyway since it's backed up on metal and it's never been used as a wallet.
newbie
Activity: 0
Merit: 0
🚨Beta24 highly experimental available!

✅BIP85
✅Change accounts derivation
✅New wallet login and customizations
✅Hide mnemonics security setting
✅Cube screen optimizations

VIDEO > https://twitter.com/selfcustodykrux/status/1776617270078284246

Where to get Krux BETA binaries > https://github.com/odudex/krux_binaries/
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
I use 12 word child seeds as passphrases for my wallets.
I have never given this much thought, but is there an upper character/word limit in Bitcoin for passphrase lengths? I am asking because you said you use 12 words as passphrases. When I configured my Trezor with passphrases, I noticed that the device has a limit of 6-7 words (depending on the length) It seems it's different wherever you look. It's probably a memory limitation of Trezor, preventing users to set up longer passphrases.

Some hardware wallets have limits.  Trezor limits to 50 bytes.  Ledger limits to 100 characters.  A 12 word passphrase tends to average around 75 characters.

I love using BIP85 to have redundant backups.  I still back everything up the proper way: paper & metal, secured in locations only I have access to.  But BIP85 gives me redundant backups of everything.  And really, once you have more than one seed, I think using BIP85 to create mathematically generated redundant backups makes a lot of sense.

The catch, of course, is that you have to start your entire wallet setup from scratch, because in order to use BIP85 the way I do, you need a parent seed.  For me, I felt like starting over with my wallets was a necessity after Ledger announced their key extraction firmware.  I didn't feel like there was an immediate risk, but long term, that nonsense is a time bomb waiting to go off.  So I started over with everything, from scratch.

On the other hand, for somebody who only wants to keep using the seed they already have but start using passphrases for different wallets (perhaps a trading wallet, a DeFi wallet, and a hodl wallet), BIP85 is perfect, because using BIP85 child seeds as passphrases protects against loss of a passphrase, since they can easily be regenerated.

EDITED to add:  By the way...  I realize that a 24 word seed with a 12 word passphrase is massive massive overkill in terms of entropy, but it's not about that.  It's about ease of use and redundant backups.
legendary
Activity: 2730
Merit: 7065
Farewell, Leo. You will be missed!
I use 12 word child seeds as passphrases for my wallets.
I have never given this much thought, but is there an upper character/word limit in Bitcoin for passphrase lengths? I am asking because you said you use 12 words as passphrases. When I configured my Trezor with passphrases, I noticed that the device has a limit of 6-7 words (depending on the length) It seems it's different wherever you look. It's probably a memory limitation of Trezor, preventing users to set up longer passphrases.
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
There are many other features we plan to add, including one that you also requested: BIP85.

That would be fantastic.

UPDATE!  BIP85 has been added to the Krux beta.  Sweeeeeet!

BIP85 is an option more Bitcoiners should discover.

Here's how I use it:

I created a parent seed.  I never use this seed as a wallet.  I've backed it up, backed it up, backed it uuuuup.

I use 24 word child seeds as my actual "seeds."  Encrypted, thanks to Krux.

I use 12 word child seeds as passphrases for my wallets.  There are many benefits of using a child seed as a passphrase: It's impossible to have a typo since the seed has a checksum.  It's easy to load since Krux does Passphrase QR.  It's incredibly secure.  The parent seed is encrypted, thanks to Krux.

Because my seeds & passphrases are all child seeds, if any of them is ever lost, they can easily be regenerated by the parent seed.

EASY.

I name my wallets with a simple system that tells me the BIP85 child seed index numbers.

I realize some people will read this and think "Yikes!  That's complicated!"  It's really not.

Krux A:  Load the 24 word child seed.
Krux B:  Load the 12 word child seed (to use as a passphrase).
Krux A:  Scan the plaintext QR on Krux B to load the passphrase.
Done.

Airgapped: Unhackable.
Stateless:  Nothin' on it, if stolen.
Encrypted Seed QR:  Unhackable if stolen.

And if anything is ever lost...  any seed or any passphrase...  it can easily be regenerated by the parent seed (which is backed up on paper and metal & the metal copy is locked in a safe deposit box).  And, I can keep the child seeds, which are the seeds and passphrases for my actual wallets, locked up in a safe.  I never need to access them in order to use my wallets, since I use the parent seed to quickly generate them each time.

I can't think of a way to make security better than this for a long term hodl wallet, and Krux makes it easy.  Everything is backed up, plus I have a backup of the backups that can regenerate everything.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 27
Any chance you folks are planning on adding encrypted passphrase QR as a feature?  That would be fantastic.

I updated my backup Amigo to the latest Krux beta binary by odudex, and holy cow is that sucker FAST!  Krux was already snappy, but the latest binary on a Maix Amigo is screaming fast.  It boots fast.  Response to clicks is crazy fast.  Fast fast faster than fast.

Yes, we have focused on optimizations to make better use of resources, which also allows us to add new features. Encrypted passphrases could be an interesting addition, but we need to consider if it would introduce too many secrets to manage. We should discuss this further.

There are many other features we plan to add, including one that you also requested: BIP85.
newbie
Activity: 26
Merit: 27
Is Jeff still active and contributing anything, or he left the project for good?
I was always confusing Jeff and Odudex and I was thinking this is the same person, plus there are some other guys who are talking about Krux in forum Wink

Yes, Jeff, Krux creator, who seemed to be a reserved person, left the project (and all his accounts out there).
Jeff, if you are seeing this, we would love to have you back if you change your mind! Krux changed my life, I'll be always grateful for it! Thank you!
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
Any chance you folks are planning on adding encrypted passphrase QR as a feature?  That would be fantastic.

I updated my backup Amigo to the latest Krux beta binary by odudex, and holy cow is that sucker FAST!  Krux was already snappy, but the latest binary on a Maix Amigo is screaming fast.  It boots fast.  Response to clicks is crazy fast.  Fast fast faster than fast.
newbie
Activity: 0
Merit: 0
Krux has undergone such huge improvements over the past year that maybe it's good to have a new thread for it?  Maybe not.  I don't know.
Dude, your post is not readable at all, please reduce the size of those images to much smaller size, and edit your post... Roll Eyes

Hey! Yes the creator Jeff left the project to Odudex and I since "it's such a well-oiled machine now", and we've been doing our best to keep this DIY project alive and thriving.
Is Jeff still active and contributing anything, or he left the project for good?
I was always confusing Jeff and Odudex and I was thinking this is the same person, plus there are some other guys who are talking about Krux in forum Wink

PS
I saw Crypto Guide released new VIDEO instructions for building and verifying Krux from the source code.




They told Odudex and I they were going to take a step back and eventually come back, but then changed their mind and said they're leaving for good and gave over the keys to Odudex and to make releases on github. No Jeff started it, and then Odudex and Co took over.

Yes we are very grateful for his videos, especially the latest one covering reproducible builds!
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
Krux has undergone such huge improvements over the past year that maybe it's good to have a new thread for it?  Maybe not.  I don't know.
Dude, your post is not readable at all, please reduce the size of those images to much smaller size, and edit your post... Roll Eyes

Sorry!  I didn't know that.  I'll fix it when I have a minute.  EDIT:  Fixed!
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
Cashback 15%
Krux has undergone such huge improvements over the past year that maybe it's good to have a new thread for it?  Maybe not.  I don't know.
Dude, your post is not readable at all, please reduce the size of those images to much smaller size, and edit your post... Roll Eyes

Hey! Yes the creator Jeff left the project to Odudex and I since "it's such a well-oiled machine now", and we've been doing our best to keep this DIY project alive and thriving.
Is Jeff still active and contributing anything, or he left the project for good?
I was always confusing Jeff and Odudex and I was thinking this is the same person, plus there are some other guys who are talking about Krux in forum Wink

PS
I saw Crypto Guide released new VIDEO instructions for building and verifying Krux from the source code.


sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 443
It's the first time I've heard about this device, but no Bluetooth and 200mAh battery, in addition to Bitcoin signing firmware, is a good thing and worth trying. I am surprised that in this article https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/getting-started/ electrum was not mentioned even though it can work with BIP-39 mnemonic.

It is better to improve your method of generating entropy https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/getting-started/usage/generating-a-mnemonic/
newbie
Activity: 0
Merit: 0
Krux has undergone such huge improvements over the past year that maybe it's good to have a new thread for it?  Maybe not.  I don't know.

I'm a huge fan of Krux.  I mean, come on now...  look at this thing:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PU0Qz.jpeg

That UI is dead simple, which means it's easy to use.  It runs on Maix Amigo hardware, which has a large touchscreen and can be found for as little as $50.

Air gapped.
Stateless.
Seed QR - with encryption!
Passphrase QR - no more typing!

It's easier to load a seed and passphrase on Krux than it is to enter the PIN to unlock a Trezor/Ledger/ColdCard.

Let's load a seed:

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PUlf2.jpeg

Note that where it says "From Storage," they mean from a micro SD card.  Not only can you save seeds to micro SD...  you can save encrypted seeds.  And you can scan a QR of the encryption key.  Don't have a QR for your decryption passphrase?  In the Tools menu, there's an option to make one.

Here's an encrypted Seed QR I made as as an example.  And here's the key to decrypt it:

Quote
hidden pass word inside

Krux can make and scan passphrase QRs too.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PaHeZ.jpeg

The Maix Amigo's large touchscreen makes everything you'd do with a hardware wallet so much easier.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PaMIN.jpeg

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/Pam7a.jpeg

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PaPUo.jpeg

Want to make a SeedQR?  It's easy, especially thanks to the large screen.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/24/PaNfW.jpeg

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/Panf3.jpeg

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PaCKw.jpeg

Does Krux do Testnet?  You bet.  "Network" means Bitcoin Mainnet or Testnet.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PaUAP.jpeg

I especially appreciate that the word "test" stays on the screen when you're using Testnet, to help avoid making any mistakes.  Well done!

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/23/PauUG.jpeg

If somebody made high end hardware for this and released it for $200, the hype would be insane.

Krux is a fantastic project.  Pair it up with BlueWallet or Sparrow as a companion app, and you've got a killer combo.

EDITED to add:  Hopefully I don't come off as too much of a fanboy for this project...  but I don't really care if I do.  I'm a diehard Bitcoiner, and I hate seeing people lose their coins due to poor hardware wallet design.  Some hardware wallets hide the passphrase feature.  Others only show portions of addresses, or they expect the user to scroll through an address on a tiny screen, which makes transactions less safe.  But having a huge screen that shows you everything makes safety easier.  The ability to scan passphrases removes potential for typos, which makes safety easier.  Encrypted seed QRs make safety easier.  This stuff matters.

We really appreciate your enthusiasm to the project! Your picture thread last time was great content for us to share, so if you would like to do an updated one with all the new features that would be most welcomed. There is a lot to unpack from the first major release, and now this one, and we are going to try our best to produce content in the coming months, but any help is greatly appreciated. We are a FOSS project after all though with our own lives on FT-jobs, and don't have any budget for this, so we do our best to be present customer service-wise with our English and Brazilian Telegram chats, but we are definitely lacking content-wise. We're aware and would like to address it moving forward. Our docs are excellent, but most users appreciate visual content I feel as it's easier to digest and appreciate when you're learning something new which involves being hands-on with the new technical information.

Basically, if it's not clear already, we are open to community members joining our team whom have experience in content-production to cover all our great features and functionality. It's not a necessity, but over time as the project grows it will become one. Especially since we have a focus on having as much multi-language support as possible in order to help as many Bitcoiners as possible globally, eventually we will need community moderators of sorts for each community. Our Brazilian community is more active than our English one, probably because most of our devs are from there lol, but it's lacking solid content community members can share as an official source. Currently, there are many amateur content-educators in that community trying to make a name for themselves using our FOSS project. There's nothing we can do about it and we understand that's the nature of FOSS, but I think it stems from not having a solid source of official visual content on our site, github, and social media pages. Anyways, thanks for your content, and enthusiasm, so far!
newbie
Activity: 0
Merit: 0
Hello Bitcointalk forum!
Hey there Wink
Are you the official representative for Krux?

I know several members who are active talking about Krux, and I created first Krux topic few years ago, but we can redirect all discussion here if you want.
This is the old topic:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/krux-diy-hardware-wallet-5350905
Hey! Yes the creator Jeff left the project to Odudex and I since "it's such a well-oiled machine now", and we've been doing our best to keep this DIY project alive and thriving.

That would be great if we could corral discussion into one thread here! That way it's easier for us as a team to manage.
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 153
Krux has undergone such huge improvements over the past year that maybe it's good to have a new thread for it?  Maybe not.  I don't know.

I'm a huge fan of Krux.  I mean, come on now...  look at this thing.

That UI is dead simple, which means it's easy to use.  It runs on Maix Amigo hardware, which has a large touchscreen and can be found for as little as $50.

Air gapped.
Stateless.
Seed QR - with encryption!
Passphrase QR - no more typing!

It's easier to load a seed and passphrase on Krux than it is to enter the PIN to unlock a Trezor/Ledger/ColdCard.

Let's load a seed:

PIC.

Note that where it says "From Storage," they mean from a micro SD card.  Not only can you save seeds to micro SD...  you can save encrypted seeds.  And you can scan a QR of the encryption key.  Don't have a QR for your decryption passphrase?  In the Tools menu, there's an option to make one.

Here's an encrypted Seed QR I made as as an example.  And here's the key to decrypt it:

Quote
hidden pass word inside

Krux can make and scan passphrase QRs too.

The Maix Amigo's large touchscreen makes everything you'd do with a hardware wallet so much easier.

If somebody made high end hardware for this and released it for $200, the hype would be insane.

Krux is a fantastic project.  Pair it up with BlueWallet or Sparrow as a companion app, and you've got a killer combo.

EDITED to add:  Hopefully I don't come off as too much of a fanboy for this project...  but I don't really care if I do.  I'm a diehard Bitcoiner, and I hate seeing people lose their coins due to poor hardware wallet design.  Some hardware wallets hide the passphrase feature.  Others only show portions of addresses, or they expect the user to scroll through an address on a tiny screen, which makes transactions less safe.  But having a huge screen that shows you everything makes safety easier.  The ability to scan passphrases removes potential for typos, which makes safety easier.  Encrypted seed QRs make safety easier.  This stuff matters.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
Cashback 15%
Hello Bitcointalk forum!
Hey there Wink
Are you the official representative for Krux?

I know several members who are active talking about Krux, and I created first Krux topic few years ago, but we can redirect all discussion here if you want.
This is the old topic:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/krux-diy-hardware-wallet-5350905
newbie
Activity: 0
Merit: 0
Hello Bitcointalk forum!

With our latest v24.03.0 release (https://github.com/selfcustody/krux/releases) having been leaked already by excited contributors and project supporters, we wanted to officially start a thread here and introduce our FOSS bitcoin wallet project. That way our devs can focus on building, and our internz can focus on managing users via social media.

For those that haven't heard of the project yet, I suggest you check out our excellent documentation https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/getting-started/ as well as our Twitter page @selfcustodykrux

The crux of it, pun intended, is a bitcoin hardware signer which consists of open-source firmware that transforms 1/5 (soon to be 6) off-the-shelf Kendryte K210 devices, such as the Maix Amigo, M5StickV and more, into versatile Bitcoin transaction signers. Bitcoin was meant to be used without trusting middlemen, and in the spirit of DIY that is why we build Krux.

For all the info on our latest release as it's too much to list, check out the thread here: https://twitter.com/selfcustodykrux/status/1768569044175650904 or of course, the release notes on github: https://github.com/selfcustody/krux/releases/tag/v24.03.0
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