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Topic: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement - page 93. (Read 452224 times)

BKM
sr. member
Activity: 315
Merit: 250
OK Folks..... here is the bottom line regarding taking preemptive legal action against LRM..... the downside is more than the upside.

You take this in front of a Judge and he only will give one shit about anything and that is USD. ANY discussion about bitcoin will go out the window because the legal jurisprudence does not contemplate bitcoin whatsoever. Its dollars in and dollars out. If you manage to get a judgement against LRM and an order for enforcement which leads to liquidation then that is what you get: liquidated value. For any of you that understand what this means - good. For those that don't - think auction fire sale for all those TH/s. It won't be pretty. And, this is only if the court finds that the bonds are equivalent or convertible to a security which permits a share of the assets.

So, cool your shit and let Zach continue to try and sort this out. Clearly he is not the best communicator, but if you were to look at the thread of communication you may find, as I have, that he is has been consistent to this point. Zach has stated that he is being forced into this circumstance by changing or evolving laws. So lets see what this really means. No, we have not yet had the evidence, but I am willing, for my enlightened self interest, to wait to see the evidence before I throw everything under the bus by dragging it into court.

But hey, don't let me stop you if you really are going to engage a lawyer and file an action..... but if you are blowing smoke up our asses - stop. It is counterproductive to your own best interest. At least speak to a competent lawyer and learn your options and your costs before you mimic the tone of the rest of Bitcointalk here.

Also, a last point about Zach personally..... when I invested in LRM at the beginning it was a direct result of a level of trust that I developed through observation of his actions as a mod on the BFL forums and after he quit when LRM was announced. I still believe he remains sincere in his desire and actions to preserve the interests of the investors to the greatest extent the law will allow. I may well be proven wrong but I am prepared, for the sake of the upside, to wait and see.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The bonds are now worthless.  What exactly are you expecting to happen, for Lab Rat to honour the agreement for his worthless company?

He is basically in protect rat mode and will do anything to keep this charade going.

We heard about that he didn't take any payments and that he was working so hard.

But we cant be told that he is breaching the law or that he might have to change the structure.

I will be waiting for Lab Rat to prove us wrong, if not then we have nothing to lose from legal recourse.

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
There has been 0 transparency about what & how LRM manages our investment , where all the money goes e.t.c  even if LRM finds a solution this cannot continue like this , Lab_rat is required to provide detailed accounting reports about what was spent where & how much of it right from the begging , this is a big fucking black hole sucking investors money , PERIOD !
M31
full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
Yep... I felt like it was almost a given with BFL but I was even willing to give them a second chance and thought monarchs were the way to go.  We should have had our hardware from them in Jan, no?
I think BF and KNC are about the only ones out there who haven't had massive delays.  Can't count how many others have had 'technical issues' that have lost people precious time mining.
It's getting to be what I expect these days!

... and yes, let's give him some time to figure things out with the lawyers.  This attack mode really solves nothing IMHO.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
Which Americans can sue labrat, a big fraud?
I will email to bitfury and coinseed and tell them that what kind of fraud labrat is and what he has done with us.

You know this will accomplish nothing in reality, right, apart from venting some steam?
Think what lawyers cost and where that $$ will come from if LR has to deal with that at the moment.
He could just say fuck it and give us 100MH/bond which is his guaranteed minimum, but the way I see it he's actually trying to get some stuff figured out to help in the long run.
Yeah, it's true.  Hardware vendors fuck people over, even if you're a big buyer like LRM, and we are suffering that, but it's not his fault.
Why don't we sit back a little longer and see how he gets around the laws?  There's always options... No point burning bridges until all the facts are in.  
Remember: lawyers win, even if they lose.  Why contribute to that before reasoned consideration?

I agree that Labrat needs a bit more space to clear up his concerns. And a week more should suffice....

By the way, what do you mean that the hardware vendor was causing problems for Labrat? I don't think that was a communicated issue. At least not with Bitfury. LR hasn't said anything about Bitfury - which is one of the communication issues at hand. As far as I've heard, only BFL is known to have an issue - and that seems to be known because BFL communicated it recently.
M31
full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
Which Americans can sue labrat, a big fraud?
I will email to bitfury and coinseed and tell them that what kind of fraud labrat is and what he has done with us.

You know this will accomplish nothing in reality, right, apart from venting some steam?
Think what lawyers cost and where that $$ will come from if LR has to deal with that at the moment.
He could just say fuck it and give us 100MH/bond which is his guaranteed minimum, but the way I see it he's actually trying to get some stuff figured out to help in the long run.
Yeah, it's true.  Hardware vendors fuck people over, even if you're a big buyer like LRM, and we are suffering that, but it's not his fault.
Why don't we sit back a little longer and see how he gets around the laws?  There's always options... No point burning bridges until all the facts are in. 
Remember: lawyers win, even if they lose.  Why contribute to that before reasoned consideration?
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
Can you give us projections for hashrate per bond over the next few months.  

58792 currently outstanding bonds. With an expected hashrate of:

25-30TH in the next week or so (318.915-382.703 MH/s per bond)
50-55TH in the next month (637.842-701.626 MH/s per bond)
205-215TH beginning of March (some of this could get sent a little early  Grin) (2.615-2.743 GH/s per bond)

These are estimates and are in no way binding if off by a small amount.  Certain factors could change these projections.


Can you also tell us what plans you have for an exchange?

I can't share this yet, but I have not forgotten about this.  It's being worked on and hopefully a solution can be worked out in the near future.


It comes in waves. It appears 50TH should have come online last month per the Jan 30th comment.

Why was there no update on this?

Where is that hardware?


That 50 Th is BFL monarchs and is delayed at least 2 months currently no surprises there.

Thanks. That makes sense. I guess from that we can calculate the number of Monarchs ordered:

25GH/0.6GH = ~40 BFL Monarchs..... x ~$3000 (at the time they were ordered) =  ~$120,000 tied up in Butterfly Labs.



sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Can you give us projections for hashrate per bond over the next few months. 

58792 currently outstanding bonds. With an expected hashrate of:

25-30TH in the next week or so (318.915-382.703 MH/s per bond)
50-55TH in the next month (637.842-701.626 MH/s per bond)
205-215TH beginning of March (some of this could get sent a little early  Grin) (2.615-2.743 GH/s per bond)

These are estimates and are in no way binding if off by a small amount.  Certain factors could change these projections.


Can you also tell us what plans you have for an exchange?

I can't share this yet, but I have not forgotten about this.  It's being worked on and hopefully a solution can be worked out in the near future.


It comes in waves. It appears 50TH should have come online last month per the Jan 30th comment.

Why was there no update on this?

Where is that hardware?


That 50 Th is BFL monarchs and is delayed at least 2 months currently no surprises there.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
Can you give us projections for hashrate per bond over the next few months. 

58792 currently outstanding bonds. With an expected hashrate of:

25-30TH in the next week or so (318.915-382.703 MH/s per bond)
50-55TH in the next month (637.842-701.626 MH/s per bond)
205-215TH beginning of March (some of this could get sent a little early  Grin) (2.615-2.743 GH/s per bond)

These are estimates and are in no way binding if off by a small amount.  Certain factors could change these projections.


Can you also tell us what plans you have for an exchange?

I can't share this yet, but I have not forgotten about this.  It's being worked on and hopefully a solution can be worked out in the near future.


It comes in waves. It appears 50TH should have come online last month per the Jan 30th comment.

Why was there no update on this?

Where is that hardware?
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
LabRat, why don't you scan the letters you received from authorities and show them to us (certain bits blacked out)?
Or post links here about those new laws which force you to change lrm's share/bond concept.

Apart from that, I just googled 'new jersey bitcoin law' ... it does not look amusing.

Maybe those will be posted on the same day the hardware photos are posted.
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
LabRat, why don't you scan the letters you received from authorities and show them to us (certain bits blacked out)?
Or post links here about those new laws which force you to change lrm's share/bond concept.

Apart from that, I just googled 'new jersey bitcoin law' ... it does not look amusing.
sr. member
Activity: 335
Merit: 250
I'll give it until Friday, unless something happens or new info shows up in the meantime, then I'll start notifying authorities and the system can work it out.

It's a reasonable amount of time, considering he's already spent 2-3 months working this out according to his own admission, for him to come to the table with an explanation of:

  • exactly what this action is "fixing".  
  • why this is the "best" option.
  • Why this can't be address with a corporation (in compliance with FinCEN guidelines for this type of distribution of dividends for mining groups).
  • What the exit strategy is for people who don't want to accept these new terms.
  • What the current hashrate is and what is the future hashrate with current purchases in the pipeline
  • What the current balance of BTC is
  • Whether or not the coinseed agreement is still in play
  • How is the future implementation of bonds going to reconcile with the loses/expectations of current holders
  • For bonus points: Why is he not having further activity with coinseed
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
The BTC is lost for all bond holders( except maybe a few insiders)

Lab Rat will not be paying out any more BTC for this scam.

He is going to hide behind lawyers and "Statues" to be clarified.

I don't even care about the 120+ BTC I have lost.  I will be happy when Lab Rat is in jail.




hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
Here's where it appears the assets stand at the least:

25TH online
156TH incoming
~10-20TH BFL Monarchs (guesstimate)
+ others hardware (e.g. power supplies)
+ mined bitcoins saved for re-investment

That is all about 200TH. Divided among roughly 60,000 bonds is 3.3GH per bond!

On how to evaluate liquidating GH...

Dave at Bitfury is selling 25GH for $400. That's $16/GH. Cut that in half to be conservative and you have $8/GH that LRM could sell pretty fast (after all it's in-hand hardware).

Original bonds would then be at least worth (if liquidating)  3.3GH x $8/GH = $26.40 ..or.. roughly  BTC0.04 + currently saved coins divided up.

If LRM can't beat that in short term dividends (within 4-6 months), then liquidation seems the best route. Everybody go on their merry way, and nobody get's sued or sent to prison (yet).


hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Lab rat has said repeatedly that as bond holder we have zero claim to any in hand or incoming hardware.

We only get a share of the BTC mined.

Now that the bonds are a fixed hashrate he just has to maintain the current hardware until it is not longer profitable and then wind down the mine.

The reason he waited until now is so that he can mine with the new equipment without paying out any of the proceeds and just claim " its with the lawyers/courts"

This will drag on for several month without a doubt.

The fact of the matter is Lab Rat has played his hand. Trust has been lost in LRM and it is now worthless.

Actions speak louder than words.



What tells us that he is not already hashing with that huge ammount of TH? If he wants to put all hashing power that was purchased with investors money going into his own pocket, well this hashing power in jail will be pretty worthless.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Lab rat has said repeatedly that as bond holder we have zero claim to any in hand or incoming hardware.

We only get a share of the BTC mined.

Now that the bonds are a fixed hashrate he just has to maintain the current hardware until it is not longer profitable and then wind down the mine.

The reason he waited until now is so that he can mine with the new equipment without paying out any of the proceeds and just claim " its with the lawyers/courts"

This will drag on for several month without a doubt.

The fact of the matter is Lab Rat has played his hand. Trust has been lost in LRM and it is now worthless.

Actions speak louder than words.

"I'm working on doing so and all I have done is provide an immediate fix that does fit into the original contract promises, with the intent to find a way to benefit early contract purchasers as more hardware comes in."

Benefit early contract purchases.  Did Lab Rat forget he was selling bonds direct to users long after the IPO finished and as recent as last month?  So what about these late purchases are they lesser bond holders?  What about the the current buyers picking up bonds for pennies?

The immediate fix only served to finalize the scam. 

I am ready to report this fraudster to the Authorities.  Please PM me if anyone would like to work together with this.

Lab Rat please send me your lawyers details.   



full member
Activity: 532
Merit: 104
None of this is an issue if we are all going to be issued more bonds as hardware comes online...

Yes IF. However, we now have cause to have severe "trust issues" and if unilaterally forcing us to accept fixed rate contracts is a way of divorcing us from the "share-iness" of the investment, then  tacitly accepting that, with nothing set in stone about further recompense, leaves us in a potentially weakened position.

Bondholders have to understand that whatever Messrs Wormtongue, Screwem and Sneer (or whatever his lawyers are called) are whispering in Labrats ear is all atuned to HIS benefit, as a perceived sole proprietor. Thus all advice would be aimed at ensuring dictatorial control and the maximum recompense for the littlest "work" possible.


Or in other words, it wasn't about control until the lawyer made loss of control a fear, (With the SEC boogeyman no doubt) and control was attempted to be enforced by a unilateral attempt to change terms, so now it's about control, sorry about your lawyers and your luck. We don't necessarily want control, but will leverage the "share-iness"* to it 's full extent until recompense is restored to expectations.

(*Hey SEC this guy sold us these things what looked like shares....)


I would demand a balance sheet if I was in your position. (hopefully his accountant also doesn't have his head up HIS ass)

Also I would demand my original money back since these were bonds not shares.

No horse in this race .. but I am sad to see this thing going the way it is.
M31
full member
Activity: 139
Merit: 100
The wait we are now enduring depends on lawyers, and if you’ve had dealings with lawyers before, you know things are not instantaneous.  Lab_Rat is speaking to a lawyer today.. so let's see how that goes Smiley

We still have gear incoming and I'd certainly prefer a short wait here while LR figures out company structure, to having to deal with the government down the road.

Thanks for bashing away at this problem preemptively Lab_Rat!  I'd hate for the government to be the one handling divs on the weekend - so far letting anyone else handle that job has not gone too well!
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Labrat. Please respond to these questions where answers are highly anticipated:

What is up with the 150TH order?

What is the current status of the hardware resources you've been working on? Were any bridges closed or burned?

Are you committed to LRM being an actual success?

Are you committed to keeping the spirit of the agreement you communicated and sold to everyone?
That spirit means you intend to continue to send out dividends in proportion to the growth of the whole company hash-rate, and maintain the same continual re-investment plan.


Bumping this comment in hopes @Lab_Rat sees it (again?).  I think these are particularly urgent questions that would put a lot of concerns at ease.

Though Lab_Rat has stated (once) more or less that he wants to have an outcome where contract holders benefit from increases in hashrate, clarification would be nice.  Hopefully that is what today's meeting with the lawyer is about... how to allow current contract holders to benefit from additional hardware purchases as was the original intent.

I'm not terribly concerned with the why and the how as long as the original intent and benefit of additional hardware is preserved.

A second opinion from an unrelated lawyer is HIGHLY recommended regardless, Lab_Rat.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
Zach did you visit your lawyer today? And we would like to have some official documents to look at. And did you actually asked a 2nd lawyer for his opinion, because relying on an answer of your current one is too less.

edit: fixed name...not zacK Cheesy
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