Topic: Lakefront property for sale, bitcoin accepted (Read 5119 times)
We may be able to help... Realestateforbitcoin.com
Don't mean to spam, but also selling Chicago Gold Coast Condo:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/il-licensed-chicago-owner-wants-to-sell-luxury-gold-coast-condo-w-lake-views-349197
I'm a licensed real estate broker in Illinois, so this would be a legit, legally-backed transaction. My reputation and license is on the line.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/il-licensed-chicago-owner-wants-to-sell-luxury-gold-coast-condo-w-lake-views-349197
I'm a licensed real estate broker in Illinois, so this would be a legit, legally-backed transaction. My reputation and license is on the line.
In this instance, the OP was only offering a piece of land, not a building.
But either way, you really ought to do a home inspection prior to closing... If you're hoping to find all the issues you might face after you've already closed on the deal, you're doing it wrong.
And the OP originally came in saying they were attempting to cutout the real estate agent. They also said no need for escrow since it's a bitcoin transaction - and again, I will agree that there is more risk to the seller than to the buyer, who again, shouldn't be transferring Bitcoins until they've already assumed possession of the executed deed.
I think I ought to be clear about something. I'm not considering the home falling apart or the land being a toxic waste dump. That's not a concern to me as OP has offered to let any purchaser inspect it so there's no issue there.
What we disagree with is who the risk lies with. Why do you feel there's any risk to the seller?
You can see after 6 transactions (a few coffees) whether the transaction is complete.
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I dont' see the issue, AT ALL.
And i'll go further to say that if this isn't a perfect transaction for Bitcoin, then it it's dead in the water and has no value at all.
Will you run through an example with me? It'll be a multi part post after your reply.
Let's say you're not a French citizen (which I suspect you're not). I tell you that I have some land to sell. It's a fantastic price.
I'll even let you camp on it for a week before you buy it just to make sure you like it.
We go to an Office de Terre* (an official and much cheaper way of transferring property in France for those in the know) and I have them confirm the land title transfer and we sit and watch you make the coin transfer to my address (which I've given you, naturally). When I see your coins are confirmed (or not, because I'm a busy man and I have meetings to go), the official gives you the title deeds and then I leave.
Would you say that's a pretty good way to go about it and that 'avoids escrow' although the Office de Terre seems to me to be acting as an escrow?
(Also, why do you keep saying that the OP has probably vanished. He regularly replies :/)
I got so fed up with this thread I just took down my listing entirely. The property is no longer for sale, not for bitcoin or for USD. I think I'll go fishing. Carry on as you were.
cant tell if trolling or serios
Hence, the need for legal counsel! OP mentioned doing the transaction without any, but hardly pushed for it. Of course, they seem to have been scared off from this thread a long time ago!
Even with escrow, the items you bring up (sellers competency) would be things that arise after funds have been distributed at closing.
Even with escrow, the items you bring up (sellers competency) would be things that arise after funds have been distributed at closing.
As a Realtor, let me chime in.
First of all OP has not posted an address or APN (assessor's parcel number) of the property.
How do you expect anyone to purchase the property if they can't look it up?
Second, escrow is used for a reason.
There are many things that can go wrong in a real estate transaction.
Title company is used to find if the property is free and clear, and to determine the property lines among other things.
Unless escrow is used, you really are taking a chance.
Even with a signed contract, the contract could be invalidated due to any number of issues!
Including: Competency, age, state of mind, technicalities, etc.
Without escrow buyer loses any and all leverage!
A title company will not protect you from that! Once you send the Bitcoin, you are at the mercy of a contract which could be found to be invalid for a number of reasons!
Not a good idea!
First of all OP has not posted an address or APN (assessor's parcel number) of the property.
How do you expect anyone to purchase the property if they can't look it up?
Second, escrow is used for a reason.
There are many things that can go wrong in a real estate transaction.
Title company is used to find if the property is free and clear, and to determine the property lines among other things.
Unless escrow is used, you really are taking a chance.
Even with a signed contract, the contract could be invalidated due to any number of issues!
Including: Competency, age, state of mind, technicalities, etc.
Without escrow buyer loses any and all leverage!
A title company will not protect you from that! Once you send the Bitcoin, you are at the mercy of a contract which could be found to be invalid for a number of reasons!
Not a good idea!
You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.
Where is the fraud to occur?
Where is the fraud to occur?
You have more rights with an Escrow company. You get 3 days right of refusal, for instance. Your way you give that up. What if you discover that the entire floor of the upstairs is rotten and needs to be replaced? Or that the foundation is cracked and has been painted over? (These are just some examples.)
There are things that are hard to notice until you are actually living there.
Could you legally complete the transaction without an Escrow company? Yes.
Do I recommend it? No, especially with Bitcoin, as the seller could then transfer the coins to another account and claim poverty when sued if something goes wrong, even though they still have all the money.
And for a party to be practically INSISTING on having no escrow company? I wouldn't do that deal with a 10-foot pole.
In this instance, the OP was only offering a piece of land, not a building.
But either way, you really ought to do a home inspection prior to closing... If you're hoping to find all the issues you might face after you've already closed on the deal, you're doing it wrong.
And the OP originally came in saying they were attempting to cutout the real estate agent. They also said no need for escrow since it's a bitcoin transaction - and again, I will agree that there is more risk to the seller than to the buyer, who again, shouldn't be transferring Bitcoins until they've already assumed possession of the executed deed.
I dont' see the issue, AT ALL.
And i'll go further to say that if this isn't a perfect transaction for Bitcoin, then it it's dead in the water and has no value at all.
Any one who buys property without a few precautions such as a lawyer and maybe a surveyor is a fool.
There are many pitfalls and problems that someone who doesnt regulaly transact property can fall victim to.
I thinks its great that you may do a sale using bitcoins, but a buyer needs some form of escrow, confirmation of your title, etc etc
These precautions dont cost much when compared to the price of the property so only a fool would try and complete a sale without them.
There are many pitfalls and problems that someone who doesnt regulaly transact property can fall victim to.
I thinks its great that you may do a sale using bitcoins, but a buyer needs some form of escrow, confirmation of your title, etc etc
These precautions dont cost much when compared to the price of the property so only a fool would try and complete a sale without them.
You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.
Where is the fraud to occur?
Where is the fraud to occur?
You have more rights with an Escrow company. You get 3 days right of refusal, for instance. Your way you give that up. What if you discover that the entire floor of the upstairs is rotten and needs to be replaced? Or that the foundation is cracked and has been painted over? (These are just some examples.)
There are things that are hard to notice until you are actually living there.
Could you legally complete the transaction without an Escrow company? Yes.
Do I recommend it? No, especially with Bitcoin, as the seller could then transfer the coins to another account and claim poverty when sued if something goes wrong, even though they still have all the money.
And for a party to be practically INSISTING on having no escrow company? I wouldn't do that deal with a 10-foot pole.
You have a title report. You have title insurance. And you have a signed deed in your hand before you even transfer a single bitcoin.
Where is the fraud to occur?
Where is the fraud to occur?
You're mis-seeing the risk
Here is a sample deed
You would first examine the property.
You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.
The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)
You would change it to be along the lines of:
The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.
The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.
The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.
So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.
Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.
Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.
But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.
I *HOPE* that helps!
Here is a sample deed
You would first examine the property.
You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.
The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)
You would change it to be along the lines of:
On January 32, 2667 THE GRANTOR(S)
* JOHN H. DOE, a single person,
for and in consideration of 520 Bitcoins (five hundred twenty bitcoins) with a dollar value of $1,000,000 (ONE MILLION DOLLARS), delivered to the address of 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX, conveys, releases and quit claims to GRANTEE(S):
* JANE D. DOE
The following property.
<>
[/i]* JOHN H. DOE, a single person,
for and in consideration of 520 Bitcoins (five hundred twenty bitcoins) with a dollar value of $1,000,000 (ONE MILLION DOLLARS), delivered to the address of 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX, conveys, releases and quit claims to GRANTEE(S):
* JANE D. DOE
The following property.
<
The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.
The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.
The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.
So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.
Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.
Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.
But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.
I *HOPE* that helps!
I still don't see how this prevents someone intent on committing fraud from defrauding the buyer?
If I'm engaging a lawyer, why wouldn't I use them as escrow? They're a neutral and trusted party.
This does help, thank you!
You're mis-seeing the risk
Here is a sample deed
You would first examine the property.
You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.
The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)
You would change it to be along the lines of:
The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.
The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.
The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.
So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.
Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.
Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.
But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.
I *HOPE* that helps!
Here is a sample deed
You would first examine the property.
You would then engage a title company to do a title search and then buy title insurance.
The SELLER would then provide a deed along the lines of (and do consult with a lawyer so that you're sure that your deed is compliant with the laws of your juridstiction)
You would change it to be along the lines of:
On January 32, 2667 THE GRANTOR(S)
* JOHN H. DOE, a single person,
for and in consideration of 520 Bitcoins (five hundred twenty bitcoins) with a dollar value of $1,000,000 (ONE MILLION DOLLARS), delivered to the address of 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX, conveys, releases and quit claims to GRANTEE(S):
* JANE D. DOE
The following property.
<>
[/i]* JOHN H. DOE, a single person,
for and in consideration of 520 Bitcoins (five hundred twenty bitcoins) with a dollar value of $1,000,000 (ONE MILLION DOLLARS), delivered to the address of 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX, conveys, releases and quit claims to GRANTEE(S):
* JANE D. DOE
The following property.
<
The SELLER executes the deed and delivers it to the BUYER. The BUYER then sends the bitcoins to the seller.
The SELLER is protected because, if the BUYER does not deliver (which is demonstratable - if the buyer says "but i did send those coins to that address", you can easily prove that that didn't occur) then the seller can prove they did not receive the consideration and nullify the transaction.
The BUYER is protected because they don't transmit the bitcoins until they have an all clear on the title and they have an executed deed in hand.
So yes, I think you're overstating the risk vastly. Again, real estate is an incredibly structured transaction with many fail safes along the way. The seller here is just proposing cutting out the real estate agent (who might take up to 8%) and a bitcoin escrow agent (another 1.5-2% apparently). 10% on $80,000 or $100,000 is real money if you ask me.
Now... would i feel comfortable purchasing a car that way? Maybe... not quite as comfortable, but i would consider it if everything else about he transaction felt legitimate.
Would i buy a rare gold coin that way? Or even just cash in the mail? Not a chance.
But real estate? Sure. Engage a lawyer, spend an hour or two explaining bitcoin, and have them draft a deed that is valid in your state, and you should be fine. If the transaction goes south, they fail to deliver the bitcoins and then attempt to file the deed, you might end up in court, but again, due to the way the blockchain works, whether you had to have it explained to a judge, a jury or a mediator, it would be easy to demonstrate the deed is invalid.
I *HOPE* that helps!
Can someone please explain to me what I'm missing?
I honestly don't get it.
Am I imagining the risk that the buyer takes on by using Bitcoin without escrow?
Has this already been addressed and I missed it or the post deleted?
lucasjkr - please help me out here!
BitchicksHusband - have I gone insane?
I honestly don't get it.
Am I imagining the risk that the buyer takes on by using Bitcoin without escrow?
Has this already been addressed and I missed it or the post deleted?
lucasjkr - please help me out here!
BitchicksHusband - have I gone insane?
I was really hoping to come in here and see a monumental bitcoin success story.
But then I remembered I'm on an internet forum..
Either way, I hope you find a buyer and work something out. Would be huge for BTC.
But then I remembered I'm on an internet forum..
Either way, I hope you find a buyer and work something out. Would be huge for BTC.
One of my firms clients bought a house last month, and we sent the funds straight to the escrow company.
By the point is, with bitcoin you don't need that step.
You draft your deed "for value received, xxx bitcoins transferred to xxx address, seller hereby... "
Seller can then sign it over to buyer. If buyer reneges, you might be the first court case, but it's simple to prove that the buyer did not transfer value and therefor the transfer is void. So, no, you don't need an escrow mechanism (and associated fee), when doing a sale via bitcoin. Now, it wouldn't be nearly so easy if buyer or seller had a mortgage involved. But in this case, the seller doesn't have a mortgage and he's looking for a buyer who won't need one also.
Despite so many peoples hope that bitcoin can overturn the system, the system can accommodate bitcoin just fine...
By the point is, with bitcoin you don't need that step.
You draft your deed "for value received, xxx bitcoins transferred to xxx address, seller hereby... "
Seller can then sign it over to buyer. If buyer reneges, you might be the first court case, but it's simple to prove that the buyer did not transfer value and therefor the transfer is void. So, no, you don't need an escrow mechanism (and associated fee), when doing a sale via bitcoin. Now, it wouldn't be nearly so easy if buyer or seller had a mortgage involved. But in this case, the seller doesn't have a mortgage and he's looking for a buyer who won't need one also.
Despite so many peoples hope that bitcoin can overturn the system, the system can accommodate bitcoin just fine...
It's because the seller said, "No escrow company". Later, he said that the title company would provide the escrow services, but title companies don't really do that (source: I used to write title software).
Any buyer doing this transaction should use an escrow company. That's what they are for, even if you are using bitcoins. And escrow companies are notoriously Luddite, so you definitely should find one that doesn't mind a bitcoin transaction before you start.
Any buyer doing this transaction should use an escrow company. That's what they are for, even if you are using bitcoins. And escrow companies are notoriously Luddite, so you definitely should find one that doesn't mind a bitcoin transaction before you start.
I don't think I'm missing anything. You're over complicating and suggesting the OP was advocating the buyer throw every caution to the wind, which he never seemed to be. No matter, he's long gone so there's no reason to continue arguing it.
I saw that, but again, didn't find that alarming. I'm positive a transaction of this sort could be accomplished with nothing but buyer, seller and title company. Of course the buyer is going to Missouri. Who in the world world but something sight unseen like that?
My vote is that you're way too skeptical. He's not saying abandon all the normal steps in a transaction, just the ones that cost a lot.
If I had property to sell, I would feel 100% comfortable doing it this way:
You come visit the property.
If you like it, we draw up contract stating that for x bitcoins recieved, the propert is yours.
I sign deed citing or encompassing that contract and hand it to you. You send me coins.
So straight forward, I can't believe you're making an issue of it.
If I don't provide you deed and contract, you don't send coins. Buyer is protected
If I do that and you don't provide coins, it's simple to demonstrate that. Hence you cAnt file anything at the courthouse claiming that property. You want to fight it? I'll hire Gavin as an expert witness for the day to explain to the jury that if no coins appeared in my wallet, I Didn't get paid.
Again. Real estate is one of the most straightforward and structured transactions out there. If be more frightful buying a miner from asicminer than I would buying land, if I had that many bitcoins.
My vote is that you're way too skeptical. He's not saying abandon all the normal steps in a transaction, just the ones that cost a lot.
If I had property to sell, I would feel 100% comfortable doing it this way:
You come visit the property.
If you like it, we draw up contract stating that for x bitcoins recieved, the propert is yours.
I sign deed citing or encompassing that contract and hand it to you. You send me coins.
So straight forward, I can't believe you're making an issue of it.
If I don't provide you deed and contract, you don't send coins. Buyer is protected
If I do that and you don't provide coins, it's simple to demonstrate that. Hence you cAnt file anything at the courthouse claiming that property. You want to fight it? I'll hire Gavin as an expert witness for the day to explain to the jury that if no coins appeared in my wallet, I Didn't get paid.
Again. Real estate is one of the most straightforward and structured transactions out there. If be more frightful buying a miner from asicminer than I would buying land, if I had that many bitcoins.
I think you've missed my point.
Also, in the world of Bitcoin, if you're not skeptical, you're broke. I'm all for selling property for Bitcoin - check the other thread where I'm out and out defending someone trying to sell property (only they're not leaving a potential buyer at any risk).
Again, the seller holds no risk here. I don't know how often I need to repeat this. Of course the seller is happy without escrow - they have nothing to lose, whether they really do own the property or not.
Perhaps an example will work better for you. I have a 2 million dollar house I'd like to practically give away to you for a mere 10 Bitcoins. It's a bargain. Just think of all the profit you'll make when you sell it.
All you have to do is come over to the UK and we'll get the Tenant Rights of Property* signed over to you. You can sign the blockchain proving that you own the coins and once you've transferred the Bitcoins over I'll give you the title deeds. It can all be done at a licensed and registered Title Deed Exchange Office*.
I can't believe you won't take up this fantastic opportunity to make almost 2 Million dollars - and you call me skeptical.
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