First, they ignore you, then they laugh at us, then they fight us, then we win!
Topic: Large German lobby organization supports ban on Bitcoins (Read 25964 times)
I'm not sure if bitcoins deflationary nature would add to the parasitic consequences of financial speculation in drawing purchasing resources from the real economy,
Speculation only has parasitic consequences when 1) it is subsidized, or 2) externalities are not accounted for. Although Bitcoin subsidizes miners, it will probably not end up being a large subsidy and can be dismissed. Since Bitcoin is not a government, externalities are the real issue. And I'm not talking about externalities caused by speculation. I'm talking about real physical externalities that are not even widely recognized as such.
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And even if it did perhaps the effect would be offset by the non-debt basis of bitcoin creation
This is the key. With non-debt-based currency, the supply doesn't need to fluctuate because the contrived concept of "demand" for money loses all meaning. Demand for money is infinite.
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But people have got to get money for new enterprises somehow, from where then if not by paying a bank to create it?
From savers? Investors? People who receive dividends in return? Paying a bank to raid its depositors is not a viable method of raising capital in the long term.
The guy who wrote this article, Christoph N. v.Dellingshausen, lists "Querdenker" (= unconventional thinkers) in the "Wants" section of his XING profile:
http://www.xing.com/profile/ChristophN_vDellingshausen
Unconventional Thinkers
Yeah he could surely learn a few lessons from them 
http://www.xing.com/profile/ChristophN_vDellingshausen
Unconventional Thinkers
Yeah he could surely learn a few lessons from them 
I think this is a good sign but its dangerous as the big cats are getting irritated by seeing the mice building complex unbreakable money networks.
I'm german and I'm a member of a political party called humanwirtschaftspartei what with its predecessor tried since nearly 100 years to fight against the actual money-system.They see the dysfunction of the actual moneysystem as the deeper cause of wars, crisis and impoverishment. As well our technological and social progress is far behind were we actually could be - The science-fiction stories of the 60's may be true today in another dimension of a working moneysystem.
Thanks to the Internet the people getting aware and they starting to break the money taboo as well.
If you still not really know how money and economics works because sure they never let you learn this in school or university than you can see and listen here a youtube lecture of a Professor of Economics
Deeper Roots of World Financial Crisis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqFpVJvSVs
I'm german and I'm a member of a political party called humanwirtschaftspartei what with its predecessor tried since nearly 100 years to fight against the actual money-system.They see the dysfunction of the actual moneysystem as the deeper cause of wars, crisis and impoverishment. As well our technological and social progress is far behind were we actually could be - The science-fiction stories of the 60's may be true today in another dimension of a working moneysystem.
Thanks to the Internet the people getting aware and they starting to break the money taboo as well.
If you still not really know how money and economics works because sure they never let you learn this in school or university than you can see and listen here a youtube lecture of a Professor of Economics
Deeper Roots of World Financial Crisis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqFpVJvSVs
Thanks for the link, very interesting lecture. I'm not sure if bitcoins deflationary nature would add to the parasitic consequences of financial speculation in drawing purchasing resources from the real economy, or if it in fact the effect would not be the same as deflation may keep prices and demand in the real economy relative to each other so that there is actually no loss of purchasing power or what. And even if it did perhaps the effect would be offset by the non-debt basis of bitcoin creation (and besides the interest paradigm may persist with bitcoin, I see people on this forum suggesting an interest system of borrowing bitcoin which to my mind misses the point of the technology entirely. But people have got to get money for new enterprises somehow, from where then if not by paying a bank to create it?).
Would be great to get the professors opinion on bitcoin.
I think this is a good sign but its dangerous as the big cats are getting irritated by seeing the mice building complex unbreakable money networks.
I'm german and I'm a member of a political party called humanwirtschaftspartei what with its predecessor tried since nearly 100 years to fight against the actual money-system.They see the dysfunction of the actual moneysystem as the deeper cause of wars, crisis and impoverishment. As well our technological and social progress is far behind were we actually could be - The science-fiction stories of the 60's may be true today in another dimension of a working moneysystem.
Thanks to the Internet the people getting aware and they starting to break the money taboo as well.
If you still not really know how money and economics works because sure they never let you learn this in school or university than you can see and listen here a youtube lecture of a Professor of Economics
Deeper Roots of World Financial Crisis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqFpVJvSVs
I'm german and I'm a member of a political party called humanwirtschaftspartei what with its predecessor tried since nearly 100 years to fight against the actual money-system.They see the dysfunction of the actual moneysystem as the deeper cause of wars, crisis and impoverishment. As well our technological and social progress is far behind were we actually could be - The science-fiction stories of the 60's may be true today in another dimension of a working moneysystem.
Thanks to the Internet the people getting aware and they starting to break the money taboo as well.
If you still not really know how money and economics works because sure they never let you learn this in school or university than you can see and listen here a youtube lecture of a Professor of Economics
Deeper Roots of World Financial Crisis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sqFpVJvSVs
The recent occurrence of Bitcoin in German TV got me thinking: they portrayed Bitcoin as the perfect online payment system and nothing else! No talk about mining, no talk about destabilizing the economy / drug purchasing / money laundering / etc... I think this is really an excellent way to get Bitcoin to the masses: want a free, secure and fast online payment method? Bitcoin is for you!
For the vast majority of the people (including merchants!) this is all they need from an online payment system. Bitcoin is much more, but most people don't need to be bothered with that.
Also we could avoid much of the critical press and maybe even some legal troubles if we just advocated Bitcoin as the new and superior way to shop online!
For the vast majority of the people (including merchants!) this is all they need from an online payment system. Bitcoin is much more, but most people don't need to be bothered with that.
Also we could avoid much of the critical press and maybe even some legal troubles if we just advocated Bitcoin as the new and superior way to shop online!
Are we there already?:
"... and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark ... "
Its a quote from a famous book. Don't think its talking about the German Deutch mark ?
Or have we already been there all along?
Is Bitcoin a threat to freedom of commerce medium, or is it providing wider medium choice?
"... and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark ... "
Its a quote from a famous book. Don't think its talking about the German Deutch mark ?
Or have we already been there all along?
Is Bitcoin a threat to freedom of commerce medium, or is it providing wider medium choice?
I have a feeling bitcoin is about to get a lot more press (good and bad) than we are currently receiving!
lol.
All news I've seen in Swedish papers relating to bitcoin has only been good ones so far
All news I've seen in Swedish papers relating to bitcoin has only been good ones so far
one day earlier there was a very positive article about bitcoin on the Spiegel website, too. they asked an economics professor and he said he could not find a problem with bitcoin.
the response the next day sure was no coincidence.
Attacks on BTC will have to coordinated by the current powers. Not sure, but the EU is barely able to move quickly and cohesively with their central bank. The US is another story. Monopoly comes to mind.
Not really.As far is 'terrorism' is concerned, the USA is quite able to dictate its rules to the rest of the world.
Look at what they did with air travel.
And as the USA is ruled by the banks, it's clear which way regulation will be heading.
Attacks on BTC will have to coordinated by the current powers. Not sure, but the EU is barely able to move quickly and cohesively with their central bank. The US is another story. Monopoly comes to mind.
I don´t really see how the article is a bad thing.
Having an honest look look at it, it does qualify Bitcoin as a serious competitor to current currencies.
The arguments against Bitcoins involve two aspects:
A) Enabeling illegal transactions and tax evasion:
- Money laudering/illegal transactions: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs
- Tax evasion: http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/08/12/us-ubs-tax-idUSTRE57B2CF20090812
In summary, both of these aspects seem to work rather well in the current system, no bitcoins needed, banks are happy to help.
B) ´Die außerordentliche Wichtigkeit der Konjunkturpolitik für die Gesellschaft haben die Unternehmen und Organisationen sowie nahezu jeder Verbraucher im Zuge der Finanzkrise bereits erfahren können.`(Approximate translation: Firms, consumers and organisations have experienced the extreme importance of keynsian spending measures in dealing with the financial crisis.)
Whilst the spending measures mostly did work in Germany, I can´t quite get past the irony of this line of argument: Bitcoins have to be banned because their (widespread) existence would make it impossible to deal with (financial)crises, which would not have occured in the first place if bitcoins had existed at the time.
In summary, we have one of the main German IT/payment organizations lobby group recognizing bitcoin as a valid alternative to current currencies whilst presenting bogus arguments against Bitcoins. I would call that highly beneficial.
Having an honest look look at it, it does qualify Bitcoin as a serious competitor to current currencies.
The arguments against Bitcoins involve two aspects:
A) Enabeling illegal transactions and tax evasion:
- Money laudering/illegal transactions: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs
- Tax evasion: http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/08/12/us-ubs-tax-idUSTRE57B2CF20090812
In summary, both of these aspects seem to work rather well in the current system, no bitcoins needed, banks are happy to help.
B) ´Die außerordentliche Wichtigkeit der Konjunkturpolitik für die Gesellschaft haben die Unternehmen und Organisationen sowie nahezu jeder Verbraucher im Zuge der Finanzkrise bereits erfahren können.`(Approximate translation: Firms, consumers and organisations have experienced the extreme importance of keynsian spending measures in dealing with the financial crisis.)
Whilst the spending measures mostly did work in Germany, I can´t quite get past the irony of this line of argument: Bitcoins have to be banned because their (widespread) existence would make it impossible to deal with (financial)crises, which would not have occured in the first place if bitcoins had existed at the time.
In summary, we have one of the main German IT/payment organizations lobby group recognizing bitcoin as a valid alternative to current currencies whilst presenting bogus arguments against Bitcoins. I would call that highly beneficial.
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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
So we saw the ridiculoulization of it being worthless.(With a counter attack of weusecarrots.com||weusecoins.com)
Now we got lobbies wanting to ban us. Streisand effect ahead. How fast can an asset climb in value? We are about to find out.
lol.
All news I've seen in Swedish papers relating to bitcoin has only been good ones so far
All news I've seen in Swedish papers relating to bitcoin has only been good ones so far
Don't the Swedes regard the kind of low level drug trading as can be found on Silk Road to be less-than-criminal, even if they wouldn't care to have it going on at the local playground? Germans tend to be at least as uptight about other people having fun without permission as those in the US.
lol.
All news I've seen in Swedish papers relating to bitcoin has only been good ones so far
All news I've seen in Swedish papers relating to bitcoin has only been good ones so far
"you can't stop the Internet." - Joe Rogan
Chuck Norris once was annoyed and shut down the Internet with a roundhouse kick Germany has always been afraid of disruptions to their society, another example of this attitude is their hatred for private schools and homeschooling. They heavily regulate private schools, and homeschooling parents can actually get sent to prison for disruption of state order!
They also have a History with monetary policy. They're willing to do nearly anything to avoid the sort of hyperinflation that preceded World War II. Including, possibly, banning the use of Bitcoins for commercial transactions if they see it as a threat to price stability.
Do not confuse this narrow minded lobby group with the whole country.
If you want to drain a swamp you must not ask the frogs. =)
Are you kidding me? This is a cause for celebration! It means we're important. 
This is indeed very good news. Stage 3, they fight us.
... and then you win
Don't forget
- eBay GmbH
- eBay Limited, eBay Advertising Group Deutschland
Very good point. Added.
Guess which online money transfer providers are a member of the lobby organization!
Then have a look at this list on the website of the lobby organization: http://payment.bvdw.org/der-payment-markt/anbieter.html
Then have a look at this list on the website of the lobby organization: http://payment.bvdw.org/der-payment-markt/anbieter.html
Those aren't actually their members. They are just listing what payment providers there are. Their members are listed on this page:
http://www.bvdw.org/der-bvdw/mitgliedschaft/mitgliedsunternehmen.html
The payment providers that are actually members of BVDW are:
- deal united
- Giropay
- Hi-media Deutschland
- Deutsche Telekom
- SafetyPay
- Payback GmbH
There may be others that are not on the list of payment providers or are on there under a different name.
- eBay GmbH
- eBay Limited, eBay Advertising Group Deutschland
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