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Topic: LargeCoin C200 Integrated Mining Unit - page 2. (Read 7116 times)

vip
Activity: 166
Merit: 100
March 12, 2012, 03:25:43 PM
#29
First 25 units only?  Where will they be once that's done? 

This is still not making sense.

Are you saying they will raise the price after the first 25? I'm going to assume they will not do that. If anything it will be even lower in the future.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Inactive
March 12, 2012, 03:23:49 PM
#28
Quote
We've read the forums, and after many conversations with customers, we have
decided to offer a 50% price reduction on the first 25 orders of the
LargeCoin C200 Integrated Mining Unit. To participate, please visit our
[2] order form if you haven't already, and give us your details. Someone
will contact you soon to arrange for your deposit to be placed into escrow
(now reduced to just $2,250).
I got that too. Now I really would buy if I had the funds on hand.  Cry


First 25 units only?  Where will they be once that's done? 

This is still not making sense.
vip
Activity: 166
Merit: 100
March 12, 2012, 03:17:36 PM
#27
I updated the numbers. Electricity is set at .12 cents per kilowatt (U.S. average)

Product          M / $     M / W     1 GH/s     Year $     1-year     2-year     3-year     4-year     5-year
Rig Box1.67720.2$596$52$648$701$753$805$857
Single1.31410.4$761$101$862$963$1,064$1,165$1,266
C2001.333200$750$5$755$761$766$771$776

The 'Year $' is cost per year to operate. At half price, the C200 beats the Single on price efficiency. Still falls short of of the Rig Box, but a little over three years will cover the difference. If you also calculate cooling and noise, and the fact that the C200 is the long term solution, the pricing makes much more sense.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
March 12, 2012, 02:57:02 PM
#26
Quote
We've read the forums, and after many conversations with customers, we have
decided to offer a 50% price reduction on the first 25 orders of the
LargeCoin C200 Integrated Mining Unit. To participate, please visit our
[2] order form if you haven't already, and give us your details. Someone
will contact you soon to arrange for your deposit to be placed into escrow
(now reduced to just $2,250).
I got that too. Now I really would buy if I had the funds on hand.  Cry
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1007
March 12, 2012, 02:56:04 PM
#25
Quote
We've read the forums, and after many conversations with customers, we have
decided to offer a 50% price reduction on the first 25 orders of the
LargeCoin C200 Integrated Mining Unit. To participate, please visit our
[2] order form if you haven't already, and give us your details. Someone
will contact you soon to arrange for your deposit to be placed into escrow
(now reduced to just $2,250).
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
March 08, 2012, 01:20:43 PM
#24
http://datacenter.bz/ Just a few miles down the road from me in central Ohio. Smack dead in the middle of the transit route between Chicago and Atlanta.

Appreciated, however a little bit too far for me when I need to swap a hard disk or a whole server or something.
Right now, I have my dedicated servers in downtown L.A., and even that has proven to be a pain in the b*tt.
700 miles round trip.
No problems, I only charge $100/hour for remote hands, plus gas to get there. Grin
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
March 08, 2012, 12:45:44 PM
#23
http://datacenter.bz/ Just a few miles down the road from me in central Ohio. Smack dead in the middle of the transit route between Chicago and Atlanta.

Appreciated, however a little bit too far for me when I need to swap a hard disk or a whole server or something.
Right now, I have my dedicated servers in downtown L.A., and even that has proven to be a pain in the b*tt.
700 miles round trip.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
March 08, 2012, 12:34:01 PM
#22
RJK: You're datacenter can't handle a power request like that?  Ask them about private suites, they can usually handle larger power requests, at least the ones I use.  400 amps for a suite is not uncommon.  If you are willing to suck it up on the open floor, you can get 220v drops and pull down 200 amps fairly easily as well.  Did the specs on this thing say it was 220v or 120v?
I haven't seen mention of whether it is 120 or 220VAC.
I was basing my datacenter comment on a single rack. I'm sure I could get a suite, but when half of the $600/rack/month cost is for power, and when you only get 40 amps for that, I dread to find out the cost for 400 amps and associated cooling requirements.

Of course I could probably get a lower cost by requesting non-UPS power and minimal genset backup, but since I am not buying 40x of these, I won't be bothering to get a quote on that Grin

RJK, where do you get a full rack w. 40 Amps for $600? Seattle? I've been searching high and low for a deal like that in California, but  the  local offers are typically 20 Amps for $900.  Cry
So basically, they tell you to stuff the rack full of Atom-based servers, or leave the rack half-empty...
http://datacenter.bz/ Just a few miles down the road from me in central Ohio. Smack dead in the middle of the transit route between Chicago and Atlanta.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
March 08, 2012, 01:13:31 AM
#21
RJK: You're datacenter can't handle a power request like that?  Ask them about private suites, they can usually handle larger power requests, at least the ones I use.  400 amps for a suite is not uncommon.  If you are willing to suck it up on the open floor, you can get 220v drops and pull down 200 amps fairly easily as well.  Did the specs on this thing say it was 220v or 120v?
I haven't seen mention of whether it is 120 or 220VAC.
I was basing my datacenter comment on a single rack. I'm sure I could get a suite, but when half of the $600/rack/month cost is for power, and when you only get 40 amps for that, I dread to find out the cost for 400 amps and associated cooling requirements.

Of course I could probably get a lower cost by requesting non-UPS power and minimal genset backup, but since I am not buying 40x of these, I won't be bothering to get a quote on that Grin

RJK, where do you get a full rack w. 40 Amps for $600? Seattle? I've been searching high and low for a deal like that in California, but  the  local offers are typically 20 Amps for $900.  Cry
So basically, they tell you to stuff the rack full of Atom-based servers, or leave the rack half-empty...
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
March 08, 2012, 12:02:02 AM
#20
RJK: You're datacenter can't handle a power request like that?  Ask them about private suites, they can usually handle larger power requests, at least the ones I use.  400 amps for a suite is not uncommon.  If you are willing to suck it up on the open floor, you can get 220v drops and pull down 200 amps fairly easily as well.  Did the specs on this thing say it was 220v or 120v?
I haven't seen mention of whether it is 120 or 220VAC.
I was basing my datacenter comment on a single rack. I'm sure I could get a suite, but when half of the $600/rack/month cost is for power, and when you only get 40 amps for that, I dread to find out the cost for 400 amps and associated cooling requirements.

Of course I could probably get a lower cost by requesting non-UPS power and minimal genset backup, but since I am not buying 40x of these, I won't be bothering to get a quote on that Grin
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
March 07, 2012, 07:30:40 PM
#19
I have to agree... as someone considering buying 2 RigBoxs and with 40 BFL Singles on order, it's not like I wouldn't drop the cash for something viable... but this is completely off the scale for payback and I wouldn't even consider purchasing one of these at the current $/MH.  This thing is worth no more than $10,000, if that... especially considering that the time frame for delivery is July, as assuming no schedule slips.

You'll never make you $30k investment back from one of these things.  Either ASIC takes off and difficulty rises and you're screwed, or difficulty remains the same and block reward halves... you might see a 1/3 bump in value, so your payback stretchs into years.  Naw... you'd be crazy to purchase one of these at that price.

RJK: You're datacenter can't handle a power request like that?  Ask them about private suites, they can usually handle larger power requests, at least the ones I use.  400 amps for a suite is not uncommon.  If you are willing to suck it up on the open floor, you can get 220v drops and pull down 200 amps fairly easily as well.  Did the specs on this thing say it was 220v or 120v?
sr. member
Activity: 381
Merit: 250
March 07, 2012, 05:15:17 PM
#18
Quote
So lets normalize all these for a hypothetical 1 GH/s fractional rig (@ $0.10 per kWh)

Board     Upfront   Annual    1yr     2yr    3yr    4yr
C200 IMU     $1,500     $4  $1,504  $1,509  $1,513  $1,518
BFL RigBox     $600    $35    $635    $670    $705    $740
BFL Single     $720    $89    $809    $899    $988  $1,078
Ztex cluster $1,190    $40  $1,230  $1,270  $1,309  $1,349
28nm cluster   $750    $24    $774    $799    $823    $847

The year costs are the purchase cost plus total electrical cost.  (i.e. to run 1GH/s of BFL singles for 4 years will cost $1078 total).


for an even better comparison.. lets compare it to a 7970 rig:
Board,     Upfront,   Annual,    1yr,     2yr,    3yr,    4yr
7970 rig    $800   $350   $1150   $1500   $1850   $2200

looks like the C200 takes 2 years to even compete with a GPU.  That is even assuming zero resale value of the GPU.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
March 07, 2012, 04:29:41 PM
#17
Basically, they are currently looking for 25 suckers to help them

catch bugs, improve designs, perfect layouts BEFORE running off 10,000 potentially sub optimal chips.

Then they will sell thousands of these and difficulty will shoot up and these 25 "early investors" will never make back their money.

Exactly.

Let's say a few friends come up with 20 grand each to finance a multi-product wafer run.
They get 250 chips.

So they build 25 miners, sell them for 30 grand each and now they have 750 grand (less expenses).

After that, it's a simple three-step process:
1. You have a proven ASIC design
2. You have about 700 grand for a real ASIC design
3. Profit!

donator
Activity: 1654
Merit: 1351
Creator of Litecoin. Cryptocurrency enthusiast.
March 07, 2012, 04:16:08 PM
#16
Basically, they are currently looking for 25 suckers to help them

catch bugs, improve designs, perfect layouts BEFORE running off 10,000 potentially sub optimal chips.

Then they will sell thousands of these and difficulty will shoot up and these 25 "early investors" will never make back their money.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
March 07, 2012, 04:05:46 PM
#15
Oops thanks.  Sad thing is that error was the only thing even keeping it "close".  

Updated post.

Electricity would have to be $.47 per kilowatt for the C200 to overtake the Rig Box in five years. Or, it would take 24 years at $.10 per kilowatt for the C200 to overtake the Rig Box. Either scenario is not very likely. I am completely lost with LargeCoin's strategy. They know the demand will greatly exceed 25, only if they wouldn't limit the initial run to 25 thus pushing the price way up.

There are many foundries that offer multi-project wafer runs, for instance http://www.globalfoundries.com/services/global_shuttle.aspx, and you receive anywhere from a few dozen to a few hundred chips.

So, maybe that's all they [will] have: A few hundred chips, enough for 25 boxes (each containing, say, 10 chips).

Then don't use ASICs OR use the 25 units as loss leaders to show the product is viable and secure large enough order to get full wafer production run of 10,000 chips.

ASIC simply doesn't make sense in small runs.  It never has and it never will.  This is the entire reason or economic basis for developing FPGA.  In large runs FPGA get destroyed by ASICS but lots of products don't require tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands of chips per year.  That is where FPGA shine.   It allows a lower NRE and thus makes it more economical in small runs.  

So
ASIC - high fixed cost & low per unit cost
FPGA - low fixed cost & high per unit cost

Obviously if you graphed these two options (total unit cost vs # of units) they will intersection as some # of units.  Where depends a lot on a lot of variables but generally speaking it in the thousands of units. 

Simplistically:
Intend to sell <1000 units - don't use ASIC
Intend to sell 1000+ units - don't use FPGA

Smiley

Usually those small run multi-project wafers are not used for retail products.  They are used to provide real silicon prototypes so you can catch bugs, improve designs, perfect layouts BEFORE running off 10,000 potentially sub optimal chips.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
March 07, 2012, 03:56:46 PM
#14
Oops thanks.  Sad thing is that error was the only thing even keeping it "close". 

Updated post.

Electricity would have to be $.47 per kilowatt for the C200 to overtake the Rig Box in five years. Or, it would take 24 years at $.10 per kilowatt for the C200 to overtake the Rig Box. Either scenario is not very likely. I am completely lost with LargeCoin's strategy. They know the demand will greatly exceed 25, only if they wouldn't limit the initial run to 25 thus pushing the price way up.

There are many foundries that offer multi-project wafer runs, for instance http://www.globalfoundries.com/services/global_shuttle.aspx, and you receive anywhere from a few dozen to a few hundred chips.

So, maybe that's all they [will] have: A few hundred chips, enough for 25 boxes (each containing, say, 10 chips).
vip
Activity: 166
Merit: 100
March 07, 2012, 01:41:51 PM
#13
Oops thanks.  Sad thing is that error was the only thing even keeping it "close". 

Updated post.

Electricity would have to be $.47 per kilowatt for the C200 to overtake the Rig Box in five years. Or, it would take 24 years at $.10 per kilowatt for the C200 to overtake the Rig Box. Either scenario is not very likely. I am completely lost with LargeCoin's strategy. They know the demand will greatly exceed 25, only if they wouldn't limit the initial run to 25 thus pushing the price way up.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
March 07, 2012, 12:36:49 PM
#12
It looks like your GH/s numbers are all off by a factor of 10.

Oops thanks.  Sad thing is that error was the only thing even keeping it "close". 

Updated post.
vip
Activity: 166
Merit: 100
March 07, 2012, 12:35:50 PM
#11
I think the OP needs to reconsider the pricing.

LargeCoin C200 IMU as offered:
Price: $30,000
Hashrate: 20 GH/s
Power: 100W
Capital Efficiency: $150 per GH/s Sad
Power Efficiency: 200 MH/W Sad
Size: 1U rackmount space

It looks like your GH/s numbers are all off by a factor of 10.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
March 07, 2012, 10:40:21 AM
#10
Yeah, i know what you mean.

But as the price rise 10 times,
you can't make your GPU farm 10times bigger than it is now ,right?
No mention to electricity cost efficiency, and price dropping due to the scale effect.
That will make ASIC grid flourish.


The price of Bitcoin is the key to the ASIC miners.

A myth.  Price is irrelevant.  Only price/difficulty matters or in terms easier to deal with revenue per GH/s.

IF price went up to $30 and stayed there difficulty would go up 6x making equipment no more profitable then today at current difficulty and $5 BTC.

Rapidly increasing price can provide a short term benefit as difficulty lags price by a couple months (takes time for miners to commit to near hashing power, build rigs, and get them online) but in the long run difficulty follows price.

$5 BTC, $50BTC, $500,000 BTC it doesn't really matter difficulty is going to follow price.

Look at how much both price & difficulty have changed in last 90 days but the daily revenue per GH/s trades around $4  (+/- $2).  I love these charts that bitcoinx made but chart is in 100MH/s which is just a weird increment still just multiply values by 10 to get daily revenue per GH/s.



If BTC was $100 and the block subsidy was down to 25, and difficulty was 12 million 1 GH/s would be making ~ $4 per day.

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