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Topic: Latest installment in series of hairbrained sovereignty schemes (Read 3036 times)

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
International waters are pretty deep.
we would look for the top of an under sea mountain range.

And it's not exactly clear that a spar platform fits this definition.
When a corporation builds an oil platform that platform extends its jurisdiction around that platform in a 300 meter circle. One might consider this precedent. though they do refer to it as an "artificial structure" so perhaps that doesn't count as new land. It gets pretty murky at that point.

here check it out yourself http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part5.htm

If you just want sovereignty, there are much better methods.
pray tell what are these methods?

But I don't see this as a goal capable of raising $1 million, let alone $1 billion.
probably not. just talking. i think the dialogue helps.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
You have to build "new land".

International waters are pretty deep.  And it's not exactly clear that a spar platform fits this definition.

If you just want sovereignty, there are much better methods.  But I don't see this as a goal capable of raising $1 million, let alone $1 billion.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
How about creating publicly traded sovereign corporations which thrive off of digital/internet business?

It's possible however it would require some technological advancements first and it wouldn't allow for the further decentralization of legal jurisdiction.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
How about creating publicly traded sovereign corporations which thrive off of digital/internet business?
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Sovereignty is only gained unfortunately through war and defending your territory, political leaders don't give a fuck about anything else.

no it can be done through homesteading. that is the original source of all claims. say you conquer a territory through conquest. where did the people you are taking it from get it? maybe they conquered it from someone else but if you follow that chain back far enough you find homesteaders. of course after you get it than you do have to defend it. that's the point of the insurance.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
Sovereignty is only gained unfortunately through war and defending your territory, political leaders don't give a fuck about anything else.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Haven't you heard of the principality of Sealand? ( yes that's a real thing ) It's an abandoned oil rig that got bought by some rich guy and the problem with oil platforms is they get very decrepit and have all sorts of structural problems after awhile from having to deal with the kind of weather you get at sea, then there's of course the salt which will rust away anything made of metal and the waves are going to break anything more brittle. You'd be better off designing something that could actually be lived on like these floating cities and stuff people keep coming up with, oil platforms just aren't designed for people to live on long term.

Then there's the fact that you'd have to deal with any pissed off super powers, if you can't bargain with them, they're just going to come and kick you off the land, because that's how real international politics works.

sure but that thing is tiny. you are lucky to fit a couple of families on there. im talking about building a legitimate city state here.

floating structures can not be recognized as sovereign under international law.

sure i know there is a risk.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
LOL! Yeah, that could work, if you don't mind the heights and the fact anyone who has a problem with someone else is going to just shove them off the edge >_< Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
Haven't you heard of the principality of Sealand? ( yes that's a real thing ) It's an abandoned oil rig that got bought by some rich guy and the problem with oil platforms is they get very decrepit and have all sorts of structural problems after awhile. You'd be better off designing something that could actually be lived on like these floating cities and stuff people keep coming up with, oil platforms just aren't designed for people to live on long term.

legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
Haven't you heard of the principality of Sealand? ( yes that's a real thing ) It's an abandoned oil rig that got bought by some rich guy and the problem with oil platforms is they get very decrepit and have all sorts of structural problems after awhile from having to deal with the kind of weather you get at sea, then there's of course the salt which will rust away anything made of metal and the waves are going to break anything more brittle. You'd be better off designing something that could actually be lived on like these floating cities and stuff people keep coming up with, oil platforms just aren't designed for people to live on long term.

Then there's the fact that you'd have to deal with any pissed off super powers, if you can't bargain with them, they're just going to come and kick you off the land, because that's how real international politics works.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Im in.  Plus I can handle the armory.  and the network and voip systems
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Definitely an interesting idea and I might be interested. Was wondering though what you mean by the "government" being the shareholders and the executives being the "state"? I thought those were two words that mean about the same thing. I'm an anarchist myself, so maybe I'm just seeing this from a completely different perspective.

Many people draw a distinction between the government and the state. Government makes decisions about how a sovereign is administrated, the state does the administration. The senate, the house of representatives, the supreme court, and the executive branch are examples of "the government". The state department, the fbi, the justice department, the department of education, the nsa, these are examples of "the state".

in this project residents would not get to vote on who is in the government or on any functions of the state. the shareholders would fill the role of voting and instead of it being 1 person 1 vote it would be 1 share 1 vote. it sounds tyrannical but, unlike existing democracies, it actually puts the economic incentives in the right place to do the right things. You see the shareholders would expect the management to maximize their dividend payouts or to increase in the value of their shares. the dividend yields/change in value of shares gives the voters a price by which to measure the effectiveness of the management/the state in satisfying the preferences of its residents. The more people were willing to bid for real estate the more the dividends could increase or the more the firm could invest and the more the stocks would be worth. The only way that the price of real estate would be bid up is if the firm were providing value to the residents. The more people valued the management the more the price would be bid up for real estate and the more secure the management would find its self in its employment and the bigger its bonus. Unlike with domcraticy, here the state actually has real economic incentives to do its job well and care about the preferences of its residents rather than its own personal agendas.

Also, I'm assuming this corporation wouldn't run the same as others, in that the corporations receive person-hood status, providing a legal shield for the executives. Would that be true?

This corporation would be sovereign so it would have the same level of authority as the sorts of organizations that usually grant limited liability to corporations. Meaning that in a legal sense it wouldn't have limited liability, it would have 0 liability. However it would have strong market discipline. Lets say it started polluting the ocean. This would piss off other governments. Pissing off other governments would make them more likely to attack. This would cause the price of insurance to rise. This would add extra expenses to the administration thus reducing profits. Reduction in profits would cause dividend yields to reduce, thus shareholders would take action and replace the existing administration with an administration that polluted less.

Even if you don't, what happens when you get sunk by an anonymous torpedo and your insurer flips you the bird?  I think you're overestimating the amount of backlash there would be from fellow customers who aren't also attempting hair-brained sovereignty schemes.

Very good criticisms. These are something i have been wrestling with myself. But i dont think you should just dismiss the whole idea because the answer isn't immediately apparent. these problems may be soluble.

In fact, I think that would be a useful experiment.  Float a small structure into international waters, and see how much it costs to maintain insurance on it.  You could do that for 30 BTC or so.  I give it two years before it's been scuttled and you're back to square one.

International law does not allow for floating structures to be considered sovereign. You have to build "new land".


I like the proposed business model...  but perhaps a different direction which would involve much less BTC would be more realistic.    Roll Eyes

sovereignty would be expensive. there is no avoiding that reality.

Interesting thoughts here. Are you referring to making a business out of something like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Do you think an oil platform can be substituted with a boat, or even an island?
Also, two years of navy experience, skipper, mountain guide & first aid technician.

I would like to apply for residency!

no i wish it could, a boat would be better, however international law forbids it.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
PGP 9CB0902E
Interesting thoughts here. Are you referring to making a business out of something like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Do you think an oil platform can be substituted with a boat, or even an island?
Also, two years of navy experience, skipper, mountain guide & first aid technician.

I would like to apply for residency!
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1004
interesting.
Like a game ,we need navy to defend pirate....
I will follow this interesting thread to invest some Nxt.
 Wink
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
1) I have a better design than a spar platform, so don't break out the welding torches without contacting me.

2) I realize you've floated the insurance idea before, and you're pretty attached to it, but I still don't buy it.  I think you'll likely end up paying out all potential profits in insurance payments.  Even if you don't, what happens when you get sunk by an anonymous torpedo and your insurer flips you the bird?  I think you're overestimating the amount of backlash there would be from fellow customers who aren't also attempting hair-brained sovereignty schemes.

In fact, I think that would be a useful experiment.  Float a small structure into international waters, and see how much it costs to maintain insurance on it.  You could do that for 30 BTC or so.  I give it two years before it's been scuttled and you're back to square one.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
Definitely an interesting idea and I might be interested. Was wondering though what you mean by the "government" being the shareholders and the executives being the "state"? I thought those were two words that mean about the same thing. I'm an anarchist myself, so maybe I'm just seeing this from a completely different perspective. Also, I'm assuming this corporation wouldn't run the same as others, in that the corporations receive person-hood status, providing a legal shield for the executives. Would that be true?
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Interesting idea. I will follow this thread. I would drop in a few bitcoins.

1 down 1111110.11111 to go.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
Why oil platform?

To avoid the cost associated with reinventing the wheel. There are already established firms that specialize in designing oil platforms. it wouldn't be an oil platform really, it would just be a generic sea platform. But yea they would have the experience and infrastructure to get the job done in a cost effective manner.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
Why oil platform?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
Interesting idea. I will follow this thread. I would drop in a few bitcoins.
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